Does every man have his price?

[_Trevor]

Nice attempt at sneering misdirection.

Tal has a point. Your decision to believe and defend certain things that are, to put it mildly, highly improbable does have an impact on your overall credibility, regardless of whether you feel it is deserved.

[_solomarineris]

I believe that you've been misrepresenting Randy Keyes in much the same extravagant way you've continually misrepresented me, Louis Midgley, Davis Bitton, and others.

Yet I think it very likely -- I really do -- that you actually believe that you're not grotesquely distorting what we believe and what we've said.

The human mind is an amazing thing.

However it is not likely.
Besides loving & respecting this man & his wife he had no profit about lying. The subjects he discussed lends 99,99% credibility to his version. Tall didn't make-up Joseph Smiths convoluted story. He was duped in a big way and was longing to find out truth about something he gave his life's service up to that moment. He deserved some answers and he got them. Every concern he raised about his doubts for the Church is a well known fact.
If anything Keyes was victimized by your zealous campaign to clear him up (suspiciously well after the matter has been forgotten and closed).

Talk about some bonehead decisions of long list of FARMS & Cronies mis-steps. This one should be counted as one of the very top recent bonehead moves which made you look like fools.

The only positive nod I can give you is coming here and defending yourself, in contrast, none of us blacklisted infidels would be afforded the same privilege in your pristine MADd board.

[_beastie]

Yes, the human mind is an amazing thing. Daniel and other apologists are a constant demonstration of that point. The convoluted justifications they come up with never cease to amaze.

[_beastie]

It's starting to seem like it. I have always appreciated and greatly respected Randy Keyes for all he did for me and my wife. I guess that's over. And it hurts.

Tal,

Once your comments were brought to keye's attention by those who desired to use him for their own purposes, what choice did he have other than to deny? He's in a significant LDS leadership position, and obviously is married to a true believer. To admit the truth of your summary of his statements would carry too great a personal price, and it would be too easy for him to convince himself that your summary was incorrect, anyway.

[_solomarineris]

Let me be the first to congratulate you on publishing a paper in an actual academic journal, if that is indeed what it is. That marks a very nice change.

LOL. Well, during this past week I finished editing Books 1 and II (out of four) of a new translation of Ibn Sina's Physics for the Islamic Translation Series that I founded and edit, which is distributed by the University of Chicago Press; made the final revisions to a substantial article on "Eschatology" for the forthcoming multi-volume Oxford Encyclopedia of the Islamic World; took my little staff out to lunch to celebrate the publication of the latest volume in the series of the Medical Works of Moses Maimonides that I founded and edit, which is distributed by the University of Chicago Press; completed a roughly sixty-page article on "Mormonism and the Trinity" for Element, the journal of the Society for Mormon Theology and Philosophy; made substantial progress on editing both the Arabic and the English of Fakhr al-Din al-Razi's A‘lam al-Nubuwwa for my Islamic Translation Series; and finished editorial changes to a lengthy article on legends about the pre-existence, conception, gestation, and birth of the Prophet Muhammad, for a volume entitled Imagining the Fetus that will appear toward the end of summer from Oxford University Press.

While you're at it why don't you write some real stuff about Islam? The plight of women & minorities?
The reality is a very cruel thing at times, your studies of Ibn Sina, Rumi, Whirling Derwishes is a nice remnant of
an enlightened culture which is a blink of an eye compared to the Cruelty this Religion spreads through his Mullahs who preach daily "Death to Infidels".
But of course you've gotta do whatever it takes to stay in this pseudo-limelight.
Watch out however, these people (as yours) do not tolerate dissent.
The moment you betray these thugs you will be minced, trashed and your bones will be thrown to the dogs.

[_antishock8]

It's starting to seem like it. I have always appreciated and greatly respected Randy Keyes for all he did for me and my wife. I guess that's over. And it hurts.

To answer your question I think it would seem to be the case. We all sell out to one degree or another. How many of us fantasize about doing other things with our lives or profession, but because we achieved a level of comfort we choose to betray ourselves? Apparently, if your version is to be believed, Mr. Keyes was threatened by your disclosure of his secret to you. You threw him into a scary situation, Tal. He was now being forced to choose between his fantasy and the reality he has built for himself. Of course he's going to continue to deceive himself and others. It's easier than the unknown ramifications of being true to himself. He has a known quantity if he continues to lie. He has an unknown quantity if he chooses to be honest.

[_Inconceivable]

Well, during this past week I finished editing Books 1 and II (out of four) of a new translation of Ibn Sina's Physics for the Islamic Translation Series that I founded and edit, which is distributed by the University of Chicago Press; made the final revisions to a substantial article on "Eschatology" for the forthcoming multi-volume Oxford Encyclopedia of the Islamic World; took my little staff out to lunch to celebrate the publication of the latest volume in the series of the Medical Works of Moses Maimonides that I founded and edit, which is distributed by the University of Chicago Press; completed a roughly sixty-page article on "Mormonism and the Trinity" for Element, the journal of the Society for Mormon Theology and Philosophy; made substantial progress on editing both the Arabic and the English of Fakhr al-Din al-Razi's A‘lam al-Nubuwwa for my Islamic Translation Series; and finished editorial changes to a lengthy article on legends about the pre-existence, conception, gestation, and birth of the Prophet Muhammad, for a volume entitled Imagining the Fetus that will appear toward the end of summer from Oxford University Press.

53 But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And he said unto me: There is no God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say. And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great curse upon me.
54 Now when he had said this, he besought that Alma should pray unto God, that the curse might be taken from him.
55 But Alma said unto him: If this curse should be taken from thee thou wouldst again lead away the hearts of this people; therefore, it shall be unto thee even as the Lord will.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 30:53 - 55)

Dan,

The carnal mind is an interesting thing. It's not always seeking sexual perversions or even another donut. But it seems it will always conjure up false justification for wrong reason - whether it be a sentence or a thousand pages.

I have very little respect for the contribution of a Mormon apologist. The regular member I have empathy for - even some stake presidents. Most do not yet know what you and I both know of the true history of what you claim to be your church.

[_harmony]

Let me be the first to congratulate you on publishing a paper in an actual academic journal, if that is indeed what it is. That marks a very nice change.

LOL. Well, during this past week I finished editing Books 1 and II (out of four) of a new translation of Ibn Sina's Physics for the Islamic Translation Series that I founded and edit, which is distributed by the University of Chicago Press; made the final revisions to a substantial article on "Eschatology" for the forthcoming multi-volume Oxford Encyclopedia of the Islamic World; took my little staff out to lunch to celebrate the publication of the latest volume in the series of the Medical Works of Moses Maimonides that I founded and edit, which is distributed by the University of Chicago Press; completed a roughly sixty-page article on "Mormonism and the Trinity" for Element, the journal of the Society for Mormon Theology and Philosophy; made substantial progress on editing both the Arabic and the English of Fakhr al-Din al-Razi's A‘lam al-Nubuwwa for my Islamic Translation Series; and finished editorial changes to a lengthy article on legends about the pre-existence, conception, gestation, and birth of the Prophet Muhammad, for a volume entitled Imagining the Fetus that will appear toward the end of summer from Oxford University Press.

And no, these are not my first ventures into academic publishing.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Tal commented about publishing in an academic journal (which was a not-too-subtle dig at your own journal), not academic publishing in general. Which of these tasks that you list is an academic journal?

The fact remains that my personal experience with you leads me to trust Randy Keyes rather than Tal Bachman. I don't know him, but I'm all too familiar with you.

You don't know Tal either. The point is similiar to the one you made with me on the other thread: I don't know you, so I can't judge you. You don't know Tal, so you can't judge him. Once more: sauce, Mr Gander.

[_Mister Scratch]

By the way, I await your citations of where I've "misrepresented" you and all your friends. Good luck.

I'm interested in seeing them, too. I bet he doesn't have anything. This is just one of his very lame Mopologetic playing cards. It's sort of similar to when he says, "You don't ever understand what I'm saying!" like he did in order to wriggle out of debating Bob McCue. Furthermore, he has been known to dole out the insults pretty generously himself. (E.g., "malevolent," "pathological," "mendacious," "dishonest historian," "Tall Tales Bachman", etc.) For a person who claims to be so bent out of shape at getting called names, he certainly seems to be pretty loose in terms of doing it himself.

[_marg]

Look Tal, Randy to some extent has a right to feel betrayed, because what he said he obviously would not want brought out publically.

There's no doubt in my mind you're telling the truth, not because I think you are a truthful person, but because for one you have no motive to make it up. But just going by his note as well, he seems to be covering his tracks. When he explains what he meant to you at the time of the discussion by "the church isn't for everyone" is not the least bit relevant to the issues you had brought to him, so why bother mentioning that to you. You were not complaining of the church being too hard to handle as your reason for having difficulty. In fact, it really was the opposite. You were in a sense still wanting to be part of the church but reconcile that with your recently acquired knowledge that the church didn't have the history you had thought it had. From the sounds of it, you were an uber conservative Mormon, quite willing to go to the extremes more so than the average member. So that very part in there is a tip off, that Randy is covering his tracks.

And Dan Peterson is a nut case, so ignore him. We all know what he's about.

But you should back down but don't lie. You shouldn't have to compromise your own personal integrity.