amantha wrote:Well I never mentioned what "kind" of eugenics program it was, did I?. And I explicitely said nothing of the third reich. Coggins7 would just like to make me sound like a nazi so the patency of the idea can be lost in a storm of reactive bias. Plato was a eugenicist:
Well, it would have been helpful, if you had specified what kind of eugenics program. And, to say that "the basic ideals of eugenics can be found from the beginnings of Western civilization" is not to state that Plato was a eugenicist in our sense of the term. In fact, your reference supports my contention that eugenics is about the quality of the offspring, which you have not demonstrated to be the goal of Mormon spirit creation.
amantha wrote:The progression from kingdom to kingdom idea precludes those in the lower kingdoms from progressing to a reclamation of their procreative powers.
Not that I am aware of, but I may be mistaken. Could you point me to something that would settle the issue?
Well if you can't see that most people are left out of the plan of eternal procreation then I don't have anything left to say. The "quality of offspring" as you put it is measured in obedience to Mormon dogma. Only those who are obedient will be allowed to procreate eternally. The rest are consigned to a neutered state. That is eugenics at its most basic form. That is the "kind" of eugenics I am referring to--the core definitional kind--not the Platonic kind or the Nazi kind or any other fuzziness you want to wrap around it to make this into a strawmen that you can burn.
As far as progressing into the CK, if that is true then, I have no case, because then there is no banishing of unqualifieds.
amantha wrote:Well if you can't see that most people are left out of the plan of eternal procreation then I don't have anything left to say. The "quality of offspring" as you put it is measured in obedience to Mormon dogma. Only those who are obedient will be allowed to procreate eternally. The rest are consigned to a neutered state. That is eugenics at its most basic form. That is the "kind" of eugenics I am referring to--the core definitional kind--not the Platonic kind or the Nazi kind or any other fuzziness you want to wrap around it to make this into a strawmen that you can burn.
My intention was not to create a straw man. Indeed, I remain open to any commonly held vision of eugenics you want to use. You still have not addressed the issue of the "quality of offspring." I am not aware that Mormon doctrine holds that the purpose for eternal progression is to produce a batch of superior spirits that will be more obedient than the last generation. If that were the case, then I think your argument for cosmic Mormon eugenics would work. As it is, this is not a widely held view in Mormonism of the purpose of eternal progression, and your analogy is thus flawed. I remain, however, open to being convinced otherwise.
amantha wrote:Well if you can't see that most people are left out of the plan of eternal procreation then I don't have anything left to say. The "quality of offspring" as you put it is measured in obedience to Mormon dogma. Only those who are obedient will be allowed to procreate eternally. The rest are consigned to a neutered state. That is eugenics at its most basic form. That is the "kind" of eugenics I am referring to--the core definitional kind--not the Platonic kind or the Nazi kind or any other fuzziness you want to wrap around it to make this into a strawmen that you can burn.
My intention was not to create a straw man. Indeed, I remain open to any commonly held vision of eugenics you want to use. You still have not addressed the issue of the "quality of offspring." I am not aware that Mormon doctrine holds that the purpose for eternal progression is to produce a batch of superior spirits that will be more obedient than the last generation. If that were the case, then I think your argument for cosmic Mormon eugenics would work. As it is, this is not a widely held view in Mormonism of the purpose of eternal progression, and your analogy is thus flawed. I remain, however, open to being convinced otherwise.
If I am mistaken in the notion that the CK is eternally reserved for the expressly hyper-obedient during and ONLY during this lifetime then I have truly misunderstood Mormonism. I understand that everyone else (the non-hyper-obedient) is to be eternally consigned to "lesser" kingdoms.
Doctrine and Covenants 76:111-112
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; 112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.
If however, as you suggest, there is a possibility that anyone at ANYTIME can choose to "progress" and to "qualify" for the kind of life offered in the CK then there is no eugenics program. In which case anyone can do whatever they want at anytime and bounce around from kingdom to kingdom based on their whims. If ever they decide to live the requisite laws of the CK they can enter there. GREAT! The eternal buffet of Mormonism. What a deal!
amantha wrote:Well if you can't see that most people are left out of the plan of eternal procreation then I don't have anything left to say. The "quality of offspring" as you put it is measured in obedience to Mormon dogma. Only those who are obedient will be allowed to procreate eternally. The rest are consigned to a neutered state. That is eugenics at its most basic form. That is the "kind" of eugenics I am referring to--the core definitional kind--not the Platonic kind or the Nazi kind or any other fuzziness you want to wrap around it to make this into a strawmen that you can burn.
My intention was not to create a straw man. Indeed, I remain open to any commonly held vision of eugenics you want to use. You still have not addressed the issue of the "quality of offspring." I am not aware that Mormon doctrine holds that the purpose for eternal progression is to produce a batch of superior spirits that will be more obedient than the last generation. If that were the case, then I think your argument for cosmic Mormon eugenics would work. As it is, this is not a widely held view in Mormonism of the purpose of eternal progression, and your analogy is thus flawed. I remain, however, open to being convinced otherwise.
If I am mistaken in the notion that the CK is eternally reserved for the expressly hyper-obedient during and ONLY during this lifetime then I have truly misunderstood Mormonism. I understand that everyone else (the non-hyper-obedient) is to be eternally consigned to "lesser" kingdoms.
Doctrine and Covenants 76:111-112
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; 112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.
If however, as you suggest, there is a possibility that anyone at ANYTIME can choose to "progress" and to "qualify" for the kind of life offered in the CK then there is no eugenics program. In which case anyone can do whatever they want at anytime and bounce around from kingdom to kingdom based on their whims. If ever they decide to live the requisite laws of the CK they can enter there. GREAT! The eternal buffet of Mormonism. What a deal!
amantha wrote:If however, as you suggest, there is a possibility that anyone at ANYTIME can choose to "progress" and to "qualify" for the kind of life offered in the CK then there is no eugenics program. In which case anyone can do whatever they want at anytime and bounce around from kingdom to kingdom based on their whims. If ever they decide to live the requisite laws of the CK they can enter there. GREAT! The eternal buffet of Mormonism. What a deal!
I would say that unless you have any indication that eternal progression is designed to produce a brood that is superior to the one of the previous generation of celestial offspring, you do not have a cosmic eugenics program. Do you think otherwise?
No thanks. I don't want to read essentially "1000 Tortuous Ways to Believe Anything You Want" type books. I have had quite enough of trying to put a friendly face on imaginary beings.
Well all righty then. I assume based on this comments you are an atheist.
amantha wrote:If however, as you suggest, there is a possibility that anyone at ANYTIME can choose to "progress" and to "qualify" for the kind of life offered in the CK then there is no eugenics program. In which case anyone can do whatever they want at anytime and bounce around from kingdom to kingdom based on their whims. If ever they decide to live the requisite laws of the CK they can enter there. GREAT! The eternal buffet of Mormonism. What a deal!
I would say that unless you have any indication that eternal progression is designed to produce a brood that is superior to the one of the previous generation of celestial offspring, you do not have a cosmic eugenics program. Do you think otherwise?
I do think otherwise. The eugenics only need apply to those who are in the process of seeking to obtain to the CK. If there is some kind of "progression" beyond that Mormon theology only speaks of increasing in glory and posterity. The perfection achieved there (including genetic perfection) is apparently complete except in the necessity of creating new live stock to herd through the celestial eugenics plan. But the "plan" of salvation weeds out the weak with every generation of gods. The eugenics is eternally perpetual and includes eternal dumping grounds for the undesirable outcasts who may never enter into their god's presence, worlds without end.
You don't need eugenics if you are genetically perfect. But we aren't genetically perfect are we? And only those who can achieve such perfection are selected for "eternal progression." The rest are effectively neutered. Their genes are not allowed to propagate.
No thanks. I don't want to read essentially "1000 Tortuous Ways to Believe Anything You Want" type books. I have had quite enough of trying to put a friendly face on imaginary beings.
Well all righty then. I assume based on this comments you are an atheist.
Yes, although I am worshipfully amazed at the creation I see around me including my precious family.
amantha wrote:If however, as you suggest, there is a possibility that anyone at ANYTIME can choose to "progress" and to "qualify" for the kind of life offered in the CK then there is no eugenics program. In which case anyone can do whatever they want at anytime and bounce around from kingdom to kingdom based on their whims. If ever they decide to live the requisite laws of the CK they can enter there. GREAT! The eternal buffet of Mormonism. What a deal!
I would say that unless you have any indication that eternal progression is designed to produce a brood that is superior to the one of the previous generation of celestial offspring, you do not have a cosmic eugenics program. Do you think otherwise?
I do think otherwise. The eugenics only need apply to those who are in the process of seeking to obtain to the CK. If there is some kind of "progression" beyond that Mormon theology only speaks of increasing in glory and posterity. The perfection achieved there (including genetic perfection) is apparently complete except in the necessity of creating new live stock to herd through the celestial eugenics plan. But the "plan" of salvation weeds out the weak with every generation of gods. The eugenics is eternally perpetual and includes eternal dumping grounds for the undesirable outcasts who may never enter into their god's presence, worlds without end.
You don't need eugenics if you are genetically perfect. But we aren't genetically perfect are we? And only those who can achieve such perfection are selected for "eternal progression." The rest are effectively neutered. Their eternal spirit/corporeal genes are not allowed to propagate.
amantha wrote:I do think otherwise. The eugenics only need apply to those who are in the process of seeking to obtain to the CK. If there is some kind of "progression" beyond that Mormon theology only speaks of increasing in glory and posterity. The perfection achieved there (including genetic perfection) is apparently complete except in the necessity of creating new live stock to herd through the celestial eugenics plan. But the "plan" of salvation weeds out the weak with every generation of gods. The eugenics is eternally perpetual and includes eternal dumping grounds for the undesirable outcasts who may never enter into their god's presence, worlds without end.
You don't need eugenics if you are genetically perfect. But we aren't genetically perfect are we? And only those who can achieve such perfection are selected for "eternal progression." The rest are effectively neutered. Their genes are not allowed to propagate.
My understanding of the fundamentals of eugenics is that human breeding is managed in order to refine and improve the offspring over a course of a single or multiple generations. If in Mormon theology/cosmology the continual refinement of spiritual offspring over the next and/or many succeeding generations is not present, then this does not qualify as eugenics, as I understand the term.
If the purpose of creating gods through this process is not to create better offspring than the last generation, but simply to create them, how is this eugenics?