Not before the showdown, Gaz. Not before the showdown, when he was recruiting those 1/3 of the host of heaven. He was evil to the core, and God didn't throw him out until he sought to take over. So... how is it that God cannot abide any unclean thing, yet he overlooked Satan's recruiting, plotting, planning?
Or are you saying God didn't know what was going on right under his nose?
Obviously with the information at hand Lucifer was doing well up until the Great Plan was presented. After this choice was presented and the option was made available to all to accept it or reject it was there a situation where rebellion took place.
God knew all this was going on, he knew it before it even happened, but he isn't going to interfere with free agency. Nothing is unclean until it rebels. Satan was apparently doing all right up until then.
So you think conspiring to subvert God's plan was allowed? That recruiting 1/3 of God's children to fight against him was okay? That until the showdown came, all the recruiting, conspiring, and plotting was okay? Conspiring to circumvent God is a sin, Gaz. You know this. God cannot abide any unclean thing. Satan was unclean the instant he recruited 1/3 of the host of heaven to join him in a war.
harmony wrote:So you think conspiring to subvert God's plan was allowed? That recruiting 1/3 of God's children to fight against him was okay? That until the showdown came, all the recruiting, conspiring, and plotting was okay? Conspiring to circumvent God is a sin, Gaz. You know this. God cannot abide any unclean thing. Satan was unclean the instant he recruited 1/3 of the host of heaven to join him in a war.
Then how did it work Harmony?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Great Plan was presented and discussed. Satan presented himself as the one who would be the redeemer, and his plan was rejected because it would involve stripping us of our free agency. It was probably prior to this that Lucifer gathered his followers who backed him as a choice of savior, figuring they needed a guarantee in regards to their salvation. When satan was rejected, they no doubt felt the plan unfair, and came out in open rebellion.
The scriptures state that Father Adam led the group that expelled these spirits into their exile.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
Your not rambling. I don't think theres a thing oyu said there that everyone here has not experienced.
tell ya what. get a sheet of your printer paper there and go to your kitchen table and draw a picture of what God looks like to you.
And don't go thinking too much about it. Use your heart to draw it, not your mind.
If you really want to have fun try this experiment. Tell your girls to do the same thing, and tell them they can't talk about it to each other, and draw your pictures in diffeent rooms of the house.
let me know how that goes.
gaz
I am done with mine Gaz:
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
If Mormon theology were logically followed through, then Mormons would be constrained to worship Satan as their "savior". Why?
Mormon theology teaches that the plan of salvation is eternal. It was not a new plan when it was introduced in the pre-existence. Everyone knew what parts had to be played. Everyone knew what the climax would inevitably be.
The part of Satan had to be filled. If the role of satan were not filled, then the plan of salvation would be frustrated. Evil must exist for good to be chosen.
Knowing that everything about the plan was preset and mandated, Satan still volunteered to play the part of Satan. He volunteered for this part by offering an "alternative" route he knew could never be accepted, because the plan of salvation is eternal and unchanging. By doing so, he knowingly was abdicating his right to ever receive a body OR to see his heavenly parents ever again. Yet he made this sacrifice for the plan of salvation.
Jesus, on the other hand, volunteered for the other scripted role. This role did entail a certain amount of suffering, but came along with the assurance of immediate resurrection and glorification.
I ask you: who truly sacrificed himself for the plan of salvation?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
The Great Plan was presented and discussed. Satan presented himself as the one who would be the redeemer, and his plan was rejected because it would involve stripping us of our free agency. It was probably prior to this that Lucifer gathered his followers who backed him as a choice of savior, figuring they needed a guarantee in regards to their salvation. When satan was rejected, they no doubt felt the plan unfair, and came out in open rebellion.
The scriptures state that Father Adam led the group that expelled these spirits into their exile.
You've ignored the question once again, Gaz.
Evil cannot exist where God is. Satan was conspiring to subvert the plan of salvation that God wanted. This is evil. He recruited 1/3 of the host of heaven to join him. This is evil. How could Satan exist in the presence of God, when he was conspiring against him?
My position is somewhat similar to that of beastie.
A while back on the MAD Board I made the irreverent suggestion that Satan chose his role. In the scheme of things we need both heroes and villains. I suggested that Jesus chose to be the hero and Satan chose to be the villain. I was, as you can imagine, immediately castigated.
Every great drama requires a villain or at least some kind of adversity. What greater drama is there than that of human existence? What would the Book of Mormon (Book of Mormon) be like without Laman and Lemuel? -- “And the people of Lehi lived in peace and tranquility for a thousand years.” Not much of a lesson there. Even in our individual lives, “fighting against the temptations of Satan” and/or adversity challenges us to persevere and move beyond those temptations and adversities and become better people than we might otherwise have been.
Actors claim that playing the role of a villain can be much more challenging (and interesting) than playing the role of a hero. If this is the case, Satan must be a truly great actor. He has deceived us in a way different from what we have imagined.
I am not suggesting that we become “fans” of Satan, only that we recognize his essential role in the play of life. As actors ourselves in this same play, I assume we will continue to demonize him, call him names, and fight against his tempting influence. When the play of life is over and he reveals himself as he really is, he may then receive the accolades he deserves.
Whats beign misunderstood here is that Satan himself is not the source of all evil. Hes just a star. Its like your telling me that your favorite singer is the source of all music.
What is being fought against is chaos. Gods plan is to bring order and creativity to a disorganized universe. The normal state of matter is chaos, but what do we hear from the voice of God? "We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials (pre-existing disorganized matter) and make an earth where these may dwell.." For what purpose? "To prove them herewith.."
To see if man can fight against the pull of chaos on their own. To see if they can stand for order on their own.
This condition existed before the time of Satan. He is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
How could Satan exist in the presence of God, when he was conspiring against him?
Once the rebellion occured he was removed Harmony. In the pre-mortal state everyone had their free agency to discuss the plan of salvation and accept or reject it. Satans rebellion occured after his plan was rejected. This entails that his plan was thought out, discussed, and voted upon prior to being presented to the Father.
Satans plan of ensuring salvation by robbing mankind of their agency was flawed from conception. His rebellion after the rejection of the plan was dealt with when it occured.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
How could Satan exist in the presence of God, when he was conspiring against him?
Once the rebellion occured he was removed Harmony. In the pre-mortal state everyone had their free agency to discuss the plan of salvation and accept or reject it. Satans rebellion occured after his plan was rejected. This entails that his plan was thought out, discussed, and voted upon prior to being presented to the Father.
Satans plan of ensuring salvation by robbing mankind of their agency was flawed from conception. His rebellion after the rejection of the plan was dealt with when it occured.
I'm not saying he wasn't removed after, Gaz. I'm saying he was conspiring before, recruiting before. Are you saying conspiring against God is okay? That God allowed that sort of evil in his presence?
