TAL BACHMAN RESPONDS TO PRESIDENT KEYES

[_marg]

And what this boils down to is that it is disingenuous to challenge someone from MAD to come here as if they can express themselves unhindered.

Ad hom's exist at MAD, too. The difference between MDB and MAD is that ad hom's fly every which way here. That's kind of the beauty of it. ;)

What you counter with does not address what I wrote. I realize Liz that you rarely if ever engage in serious discussion, so I suppose to you prevention of critical discussion of is no importance.

At MAD, those who throw ad hom's toward the critics are protected. The critics, however, are banned for similar behavior.

so what?

[_Chap]

So far as I can see, the reasons that Marg and LOAP give for saying this board is not 'level' are that people are sometimes rude to them, or divert the discussion into what they feel are irrelevant issues.

A challenge was made to a Midgley to come here with the implication he will be treated fairly and will be unhindered from expressing himself. If he is harrassed which this board makes no guarantees to deterring as it has no clear cut rules against ad hominems in the Celestial he will be prevented from expressing himself unhindered.

Midgley will be unhindered in the sense that matters most of all - that he can say exactly what he likes, and nobody on this board will delete his posts, or threaten him with banning. Of course people may respond in all kinds of rude or distracting ways that he may not enjoy. But though that may make him feel irritated, if he is a personal of normal firmness he should find no impediment to expressing himself as fully and as clearly as he wishes.

I think you may be a bit more sensitive to that kind of thing than the majority of internet posters are. Try just not reading what is posted by the people who, you feel, 'harass' you, and concentrate on putting over your point of view as effectively as you can.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Why the quotes round "lack of censorship"? This board, as a whole, is not censored. There are places where you can say anything you like, though there are also places where you have to obey certain rules if you want to stay there. However, even if you break those rules all that happens is that your thread drops down to a lower forum. It is not deleted, and you don't get banned - and yet the world has not come to an end, and you still appear to be in possession of both your sanity and your religious faith.

Personally I favor a more open posting forum, but realize the time and energy it requires those who moderated such a forum to manage it promptly and effectively.

1. what actions the mods would have to take to ensure that things were "equal in a social sense"

2. why it is desirable that things should be "equal in a social sense".

Some people tend to end conversations after a certain amount of disrespect is demonstrated. Not everyone, mind you. But again, to be sure: personally I favor a more open posting forum, but realize the time and energy it requires those who moderated such a forum to manage it promptly and effectively.

I hate this board design, for what it's worth, too. Liar! Heathen! ugh.

[_marg]

Midgley will be unhindered in the sense that matters most of all - that he can say exactly what he likes, and nobody on this board will delete his posts, or threaten him with banning.

that's a matter of opinion as to what matters most in critical discussion. If one's views get distorted and lost in the off tangents, if one gives up because it is too time consuming countering the attacks then one hasn't been heard fairly.

Of course people may respond in all kinds of rude or distracting ways that he may not enjoy. But though that may make him feel irritated, if he is a personal of normal firmness he should find no impediment to expressing himself as fully and as clearly as he wishes.

Right, well ask kevin in that thread on evolution whether he feels most of his time was spent countering attacks versus addressing the topic. You simply are not being realistic Chap.

I think you may be a bit more sensitive to that kind of thing than the majority of internet posters are. Try just not reading what is posted by the people who, you feel, 'harass' you, and concentrate on putting over your point of view as effectively as you can.

I'm sensitive to the extent that I have a realistic understanding how critical discussions can be hindered or prevented from ad homs. If Shade's invitation is for Midgley to state his views and that's it, and then leave, no further discussion, sure he can be guaranteed whatever he posts will not be deleted. If it's to carry on a critical discussion with others, he has no guarantee that Shades will prevent others from destroying the thread by ad hom tangents.

And one point Chap you haven't been in a position in which one person or some people have gone out of their way to focus on attacking you, and I haven't either. That doesn't mean I don't recognize when it has happened or when it can likely happen. This board doesn't prevent that behavior. The Celestial is not a place where ad homs are curtailed to prevent that behavior, no consistent rules are in place. It is a matter of whim by Shades or mods, when moderation for ad homs is used.

[_Chap]

Why the quotes round "lack of censorship"? This board, as a whole, is not censored. There are places where you can say anything you like, though there are also places where you have to obey certain rules if you want to stay there. However, even if you break those rules all that happens is that your thread drops down to a lower forum. It is not deleted, and you don't get banned - and yet the world has not come to an end, and you still appear to be in possession of both your sanity and your religious faith.

Personally I favor a more open posting forum, but realize the time and energy it requires those who moderated such a forum to manage it promptly and effectively.

1. what actions the mods would have to take to ensure that things were "equal in a social sense"

2. why it is desirable that things should be "equal in a social sense".

Some people tend to end conversations after a certain amount of disrespect is demonstrated. Not everyone, mind you. But again, to be sure: personally I favor a more open posting forum, but realize the time and energy it requires those who moderated such a forum to manage it promptly and effectively.

I hate this board design, for what it's worth, too. Liar! Heathen! ugh.

I still don't understand you. But never mind. Thank you for trying to explain yourself.

[_Chap]

Midgley will be unhindered in the sense that matters most of all - that he can say exactly what he likes, and nobody on this board will delete his posts, or threaten him with banning.

If Shade's invitation is for Midgley to state his views and that's it, and then leave, no further discussion, sure he can be guaranteed whatever he posts will not be deleted. If it's to carry on a critical discussion with others, he has no guarantee that Shades will prevent others from destroying the thread by ad hom tangents.

Again, all anybody has to do with contributions that are merely insulting or tangential is to ignore them, and carry on with the main thread of the discussion.

Of course sometimes no-one is really interested in the topic one wishes to discuss, and as a result they go off and discuss something else instead. Annoying, I know, but it can hardly be called a barrier to critical discussion. That is unlikely to happen in the case of Midgley, so long as he has the guts to hang in there.

[_marg]

Again, all anybody has to do with contributions that are merely insulting or tangential is to ignore them, and carry on with the main thread of the discussion.

It can be easier said than done. What can and does happen Chap is that the focus on a person, often leads the readers, the participants in discussion as well, to shift focus off the argument onto the person. It can become too time consuming to counter that. What that person argues becomes lost. It's a tactic and it can be effective.

Of course sometimes no-one is really interested in the topic one wishes to discuss, and as a result they go off and discuss something else instead. Annoying, I know, but it can hardly be called a barrier to critical discussion. That is unlikely to happen in the case of Midgley, so long as he had the guts to hang in there.

Discussions are bound to get into sub argments. But back to my point this is not a place even with the Celestial which is supposedly heavily modersated, where someone can express themselves guaranteed to be free from ad hominem diversionary tactics which are meant to hinder and prevent critical discussion on topic. It all depends on the mood of the mods and Shades.

[_Yoda]

What you counter with does not address what I wrote. I realize Liz that you rarely if ever engage in serious discussion, so I suppose to you prevention of critical discussion of is no importance.

This coming from the woman who hates ad hom's. This is truly ironic.

At MAD, those who throw ad hom's toward the critics are protected. The critics, however, are banned for similar behavior.

so what?

In other words, no one here is coddled. People here on both sides of the aisle can be either civil or nasty as they choose. You aren't going to be banned for simply taking a certain view. That, to me, represents a more even playing field than what MAD has to offer. You obviously have a different opinion. Yet, you are still drawn to posting here. Imagine that. ;)

[_Chap]

But back to my point this is not a place even with the Celestial which is supposedly heavily modersated, where someone can express themselves guaranteed to be free from ad hominem diversionary tactics which are meant to hinder and prevent critical discussion on topic. It all depends on the mood of the mods and Shades.

This seems to be a substantive point that deserves some comment from the mods. (I don't feel much sympathy for the other parts of her post, though.)

Again - has marg complained to mods about this kind of problem in the Celestial forum? Did you think her complaints had merit? If so, what did you do about it?

[_The Nehor]

You aren't going to be banned for simply taking a certain view. That, to me, represents a more even playing field than what MAD has to offer. You obviously have a different opinion. Yet, you are still drawn to posting here. Imagine that. ;)

Personally, I just question my sanity.