Outing other Exmos or exmo sympathisers

[_solomarineris]

At least one of those "silly old busybodies" is DCP. Another of them is Bob Crockett.

Perhaps, but you're worse then both of them. You hunt down quotes, dig up dirt, and parade it before everyone who will listen with glee. You've confessed yourself that you're less interested in Mormonism and more into Apologetics. I assume by that you mean the people and not the ideas. This is borne out by the majority of your posts focusing on the 'questionable integrity' of apologists and your confession that you have 'little birdies' reporting to you about various people. You never do this to advance the progression of ideas. You do it to impugn the character of the person speaking.

You are the consummate busybody. With DCP we have some discussion of Quinn. With Crockett we have one or two instances. You do this CONSTANTLY.

Edit: I would add that if the SCMC existed in the form you imagine, you would be the ideal person to run it.

Nehor Dude,
DCP digs his own holes, Scratch & his spies, minions heap all kinds of manure into the hole.
Don't blame them to gang up on this fellow. If DCP is an easy target he deserves what he gets.
He is the laughing-stock outside of his Kiss-Ass Academia circle.

DCP is the enbodiment of a true "Willage Idiot" that every community thrives to get their jollies flowing.

[_rcrocket]

This is such simplistic thinking. Where is it written that if one associates with a group or organization that he/she has to agree with EVERY thing that group or organization says or does or with all its policies? Authoritarians just love people who think as simplistically as you do.

The policy of violating the confidentiality of the confessional at BYU and Mormon Inc. is deplorable. I thought so as an active member and BYU faculty, and I think so now as a non-believer and former BYU faculty.

As I understand it, when you are employed by CES or BYU, you are told in advance (either by disclosure or with a written contract) that a condition to your employment is temple recommend status (and, in the case of CES, freedom from bankruptcy filings) to be confirmed by regular consultation with your bishop. Was this not told to you prior to your employment?

It is like going to a doctor and signing all the waivers they ask for to disclose your medical records to this and that person and agency. Without the waivers it would be a breach of law and ethics for the disclosures.

[_Yoda]

OK.....The world may actually come to an end. I agree with Bob! LOL

You can't tell me that as an educated adult with plenty of teaching options, you don't know what you're getting into when you become a BYU employee. If they inform you of the terms in writing, up front, and you agree to it, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

[_guy sajer]

This is such simplistic thinking. Where is it written that if one associates with a group or organization that he/she has to agree with EVERY thing that group or organization says or does or with all its policies? Authoritarians just love people who think as simplistically as you do.

The policy of violating the confidentiality of the confessional at BYU and Mormon Inc. is deplorable. I thought so as an active member and BYU faculty, and I think so now as a non-believer and former BYU faculty.

As I understand it, when you are employed by CES or BYU, you are told in advance (either by disclosure or with a written contract) that a condition to your employment is temple recommend status (and, in the case of CES, freedom from bankruptcy filings) to be confirmed by regular consultation with your bishop. Was this not told to you prior to your employment?

It is like going to a doctor and signing all the waivers they ask for to disclose your medical records to this and that person and agency. Without the waivers it would be a breach of law and ethics for the disclosures.

Actually in my case, No. The ecclesiastical endorsement was instituted after I joined the faculty.

Even if it had been in place when I joined, I do not see that it matters. First, even if I consent to it, it doesn't make the policy a good one. Second, I never, ever signed a statement saying that I agreed never to criticize BYU policies, and BYU never asked me to sign such a statement. Third, my employment was based on agreeing to adhere to the policy, not on agreeing never to criticize it. Fourth, faculty at BYU dispute or criticize other policies (whether informally or through formal channels) that existed at the time of their employment to which they agreed, implicitly or explicitly. They are not terminated for this. I see nothing anywhere suggesting the the ecclesiastical endorsement policy is of a special status. Fifth, even had I knowingly consented at the time of my employment, my understanding of the policy, its appropriateness, its fairness, etc. changed over time, along with my views in other areas. What I might at one point have thought was good policy I now think is bad policy. People change, and their perspectives and opinions change.

Really, Robert, you're too smart to be making such a simplistic argument.

[_guy sajer]

OK.....The world may actually come to an end. I agree with Bob! LOL

You can't tell me that as an educated adult with plenty of teaching options, you don't know what you're getting into when you become a BYU employee. If they inform you of the terms in writing, up front, and you agree to it, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

And people, and their perspectives, never, ever change, do they?

When I joined BYU, I was TBM to the core. When the EE was instituted, I had no problem with it.

I would agree, however, that if one joins BYU, is aware of this policy, finds it objectionable, then should probably look for employment also.

Also, no job is perfect--we sometimes accept the bad along with the good, if we think the latter outweighs the former.

But the fundamental point is that the argument that if one initially consents to a policy one forever and ever signs away his/her right to criticize it later on is a stupid argument.

[_silentkid]

And people, and their perspectives, never, ever change, do they?

When I joined BYU, I was TBM to the core. When the EE was instituted, I had no problem with it.

This is the point I was trying to make. Both of the professors I have discussed this with were also TBM's at the time of their hirings and throughout much of their respective careers. Now they don't believe. Yet, they are required to obtain temple recommends to keep their jobs. They are in a tough position. It's not as simple as Bob and Nehor make it out to be.

[_asbestosman]

This is the point I was trying to make. Both of the professors I have discussed this with were also TBM's at the time of their hirings and throughout much of their respective careers. Now they don't believe. Yet, they are required to obtain temple recommends to keep their jobs. They are in a tough position. It's not as simple as Bob and Nehor make it out to be.

Sure it is. Just don't make promises that imply you'll never change your mind. Of course then nobody would ever make any promises, but still.

[_The Nehor]

And people, and their perspectives, never, ever change, do they?

When I joined BYU, I was TBM to the core. When the EE was instituted, I had no problem with it.

This is the point I was trying to make. Both of the professors I have discussed this with were also TBM's at the time of their hirings and throughout much of their respective careers. Now they don't believe. Yet, they are required to obtain temple recommends to keep their jobs. They are in a tough position. It's not as simple as Bob and Nehor make it out to be.

They are in a tough position. I wouldn't deny that. However it is one of their own making. If a youth signs up to fight in what they believe to be a just war and then later discover that they believe it to be unjust and wish to be an objector then they're also screwed until they can get out. This is not a rare phenomena. I signed a contract to work a job and later found out that I disagreed morally with part of what I was doing. I bore it and got out when I could. You're not tied to one university for life. You can move on.

[_Mercury]

I signed a contract to work a job and later found out that I disagreed morally with part of what I was doing.

Fluffer, Giz mopper or Death Star contractor?

[_Yoda]

OK.....The world may actually come to an end. I agree with Bob! LOL

You can't tell me that as an educated adult with plenty of teaching options, you don't know what you're getting into when you become a BYU employee. If they inform you of the terms in writing, up front, and you agree to it, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

And people, and their perspectives, never, ever change, do they?

When I joined BYU, I was TBM to the core. When the EE was instituted, I had no problem with it.

I would agree, however, that if one joins BYU, is aware of this policy, finds it objectionable, then should probably look for employment also.

Also, no job is perfect--we sometimes accept the bad along with the good, if we think the latter outweighs the former.

But the fundamental point is that the argument that if one initially consents to a policy one forever and ever signs away his/her right to criticize it later on is a stupid argument.

I think, though, that your situation is unique. The Ecclesiastical Endorsement was imposed after you were initially employed. My point is that for those who want to teach at BYU now, it needs to be a "buyer beware" situation. There are plenty of universities to teach in.

My perspective is a little different because I have not only taught in the NC State College system, but I also worked in HR for a Fortune 500 company. I just think that it's important for the job seeker to be picky about who they choose to work for, and research the business culture very carefully before accepting a position.

Do I agree with the policy surrounding BYU's EE? No, I do not. And because I don't, I wouldn't be caught dead teaching there.