Fun w/ online missionaries: NY TIMES on 14 year old bride!

[_Sam Harris]

Another person's life and spiritual path are not a game at all.

In that case the CoJCoLDS should cease its missionary programme, which is designed specifically to interfere deeply in other persons' "life and spiritual path" by turning them into LDS. And it seems, from missionary and other accounts on this board and elsewhere, that the CoJCoLDS specifically targets the inadequate and those going through life crises that render them vulnerable.

A little guerrilla action designed to sow a little doubt in the minds of those charged with that mission may save some unfortunate from wasting years of their life on a cult.

Again, you're just looking for excuses. People sharing their beliefs and what they feel makes their life better (which is part of the motivation for many missionaries) is not the same as what B&L is doing.

Provide proof that the church targets the struggling. People convert to faith PERIOD when they are in a place of struggling. The LDS church is not the only place that reaches out the hurting. It's the admonition given to Christians as a whole. No deal.

Excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses.

I'll go kick a black person now, since your logic is so sound. All those people, my people getting shot by the cops for being too aggressive, the teen moms, the BET culture...it's infuriating. I want to lash out at the establishment too...here comes one now, a nice co-worker of mine who has done nothing to me personally, but she represents that which I have a problem with. Be right back.

[_Sam Harris]

Got a question. Is there a marriage license for Joseph Smith and Hellen Kimball?

yes there is.

Where?

Why are you asking? Do you doubt the information on the genealogy site maintained by devout members of the church? I really hope not ...

Seeing that marriage license is not necessary to your salvation. In any case, I have a spiritual witness that is far more reliable than any paper license. You are relying on the arm of flesh. Pray, fast, and study the scriptures, and the Spirit will answer your question.

Oh whatever. He asked for you all to put your money where your mouth is. Perhaps if he saw that cert, he'd agree that B&L was justified.

[_Chap]

Another person's life and spiritual path are not a game at all.

In that case the CoJCoLDS should cease its missionary programme, which is designed specifically to interfere deeply in other persons' "life and spiritual path" by turning them into LDS. And it seems, from missionary and other accounts on this board and elsewhere, that the CoJCoLDS specifically targets the inadequate and those going through life crises that render them vulnerable.

A little guerrilla action designed to sow a little doubt in the minds of those charged with that mission may save some unfortunate from wasting years of their life on a cult.

Again, you're just looking for excuses. People sharing their beliefs and what they feel makes their life better (which is part of the motivation for many missionaries) is not the same as what B&L is doing.

Provide proof that the church targets the struggling. People convert to faith PERIOD when they are in a place of struggling. The LDS church is not the only place that reaches out the hurting. It's the admonition given to Christians as a whole. No deal.

Excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses.

I'll go kick a black person now, since your logic is so sound. All those people, my people getting shot by the cops for being too aggressive, the teen moms, the BET culture...it's infuriating. I want to lash out at the establishment too...here comes one now, a nice co-worker of mine who has done nothing to me personally, but she represents that which I have a problem with. Be right back.

You seem to be somewhat over-wrought, and it is making you sound less than reasonable. Maybe there is a good reason for that, but all the same you would probably feel better if you left this board for a while and thought about something else.

By the way, citing the practice of other Christian organisations as parallels to LDS only works on people who believe in that religion. Hence it does not work on me.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Got a question. Is there a marriage license for Joseph Smith and Hellen Kimball?

yes there is.

Where?

I am not sure, but you can bet it does exist. Otherwise why would they list it as a MARRIAGE on their website???

[_Sam Harris]

"Under what circumstances is it morally permissible to seek effectively to confute, by argument and evidence, the claims of those who publicly advocate a religious position, and who are put forward by their church to advocate that position to all comers?"

It must surely be permissible sometimes. But when, in your view?

It's permissible in circumstances where you simply seek to put information out there for those who are seeking to recieve it. It is NOT AND NEVER WILL BE permissible to force it on anyone. B&L does that, others here do too.

It is not up to you or anyone else on here who is an exmo to decide when, if, or how people leave the LDS church. That is their journey and their decision. If you see that someone is clearly going downhill emotionally, and they have questions, answer them. But stop the fakeness, what B&L did was like pulling the legs off of insects or feeding cats food laced with rat poison. It was intended to hurt, whether or not any of you saw the fruits thereof is irrelevant. Remember your own experiences. The right thing to do would be to not put someone through the same pain you went through.

Do you think I haven't sat among my TBM friends and thought about "giving the truth"? I have! But then I take a good look at said friends and wonder just how much good my story and my "truth" will be to them. I have one friend who at times seems overwhelmed by the pressures of church culture. I almost led him here. But I trusted in his own ability to manage his own life, and he made the necessary changes within his faith construct to be both LDS and happy.


See, the problem here is the rabid exmo perception. You cannot, under any circumstances be LDS, happy, sane, and stable. There's got to be some sort of mental deficiency going on, because since you all were so unhappy as Mormons, anyone else who is not is clearly pulling the wool over their own eyes, or mental. It's insulting.

Give others the same respect for their life path as you want for yours. The adult thing to do. Stop trying to justify your actions and accept that you alone will not bring about the downfall of this faith or any other. Neither will Dawkins or Harris or any of the others. Just go about your personal happiness and let what will be, be.

Those who are meant to leave the church to move onto other paths will do so. Those who are meant to stay in order to live the lives that will make them the msot happy will do so. Those who are meant to leave faith altogether will do so. Those who are meant to make faith transitions will do so.

With regards to the rabid atheist exmos on this board, only a few of which I have been able to identify...it's amazing how those people who do not believe in God want to play God the most. Stop messing with other people's paths. Do not tell me that faith or religion, which many people hold very intrinsically, is a light matter. It wasn't for you when you were going through your exodus, so don't assume it would be for anyone else.

If it were a light matter, none of us would be here.

[_Dr. Shades]

You seem to be somewhat over-wrought, and it is making you sound less than reasonable. Maybe there is a good reason for that, but all the same you would probably feel better if you left this board for a while and thought about something else.

[MODERATOR NOTE: Please do not "de-invite" anyone away from the board for any reason. The solution to any problem always lies in continued discussion, not withdrawal and silence.

If EVERYONE took the advice you just gave, then we wouldn't have much of a message board left, right?]

[_The Dude]

They are PEOPLE,

Undisputed

and the same information you're giving them is the same information that led many of you on not-so-pleasant paths out of the church.

Undisputed

They are not GAs or the prophet. They are followers, just like some of you once were.

Undisputed

The deal is that some of you haven't dealt with your anger over "being decieved", so you take it out on that which represents to you, the deception.

You go from three undisputed premises to a psychobabble conclusion. Overall, a fine non sequitur. Keep up the good work, Sam Harris.

[_rcrocket]

Hmm. Way to put it, Sam. You surprise me. Maybe you are a Christian after all.


I think it is OK to go to the local Orthodox synagogue a few miles from my home and throw turds on the roof and then laugh as they come out, don't you (collectively, and not you personally)?

[But, you are a great person to de-invite, you rabid apologist.]

[_Sam Harris]

Another person's life and spiritual path are not a game at all.

In that case the CoJCoLDS should cease its missionary programme, which is designed specifically to interfere deeply in other persons' "life and spiritual path" by turning them into LDS. And it seems, from missionary and other accounts on this board and elsewhere, that the CoJCoLDS specifically targets the inadequate and those going through life crises that render them vulnerable.

A little guerrilla action designed to sow a little doubt in the minds of those charged with that mission may save some unfortunate from wasting years of their life on a cult.

Again, you're just looking for excuses. People sharing their beliefs and what they feel makes their life better (which is part of the motivation for many missionaries) is not the same as what B&L is doing.

Provide proof that the church targets the struggling. People convert to faith PERIOD when they are in a place of struggling. The LDS church is not the only place that reaches out the hurting. It's the admonition given to Christians as a whole. No deal.

Excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses.

I'll go kick a black person now, since your logic is so sound. All those people, my people getting shot by the cops for being too aggressive, the teen moms, the BET culture...it's infuriating. I want to lash out at the establishment too...here comes one now, a nice co-worker of mine who has done nothing to me personally, but she represents that which I have a problem with. Be right back.

You seem to be somewhat over-wrought, and it is making you sound less than reasonable. Maybe there is a good reason for that, but all the same you would probably feel better if you left this board for a while and thought about something else.

By the way, citing the practice of other Christian organisations as parallels to LDS only works on people who believe in that religion. Hence it does not work on me.

Yes, make me mental now. Honey, I have been putting pen to paper in the form of stories and poems since age 7. I've been writing songs since age 14. What you see is called a "writing style". I don't buy the "you don't agree with me, so you must be mental" mentality that is often bandied about here. The minute someone vehemently disagrees with the popular groupthink, then that person is so emotional or on edge. No deal. I just express my thoughts more eloquently "on paper" than I do by voice. All my blogs are the same. I'm less than reasonable beause you don't want to see the reason of what I'm saying.

But you can sit in your high stool of being above religion, yet low enough to kick on it. I put that last paragraph out there to show you how rediculous justifying B&L's actions really is. Would I do such a thing? No. I'm far better than that.

But keep trying to diminish what I'm saying.

LOL, if I were to ever come back here saying I didn't believe in God and I hated the LDS church, I'd have so many friends. But I know that a person's estimation of you in most cases only goes so far as your ability to stay within their worldview.

[_Sam Harris]

They are PEOPLE,

Undisputed

and the same information you're giving them is the same information that led many of you on not-so-pleasant paths out of the church.

Undisputed

They are not GAs or the prophet. They are followers, just like some of you once were.

Undisputed

The deal is that some of you haven't dealt with your anger over "being decieved", so you take it out on that which represents to you, the deception.

You go from three undisputed premises to a psychobabble conclusion. Overall, a fine non sequitur. Keep up the good work, Sam Harris.

If the first three were undisputed, you all wouldn't have your little games to play. Everything that you all don't agree with is psychobabble, everyone you don't agree with is mental or an idiot. I've been on this board long enough to know what is "wise", "acceptable", and "popular". It only works here, not in the real world.