Fun w/ online missionaries: NY TIMES on 14 year old bride!

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_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

You don't lack integrity as much as you lack continuity and consistency of thought, Sam. I'm going to cherry pick portions of your comments here, bold parts and then demonstrate how you contradict yourself, and also make some comments. You see, you've been posting mainly to men who aren't multi-task thinkers like women are. I'm sure they didn't see the contradictions you've made. Let's take a look:

Firstly, I stand by the word deconstruct. B&L's sole aim is not to "chat", it is to hurt.

The church's aim is to put forth their religious beliefs as they see it. They may be ignorant (some of them, most of them) of the true history behind what they are putting forth. B&L knows that what he is doing could cause someone emotional distress.


That it could cause someone emotional distress is no reason to hide the truth. If you had cancer would you want your doctor to tell you or hide the truth from you?

Sorry, but it's inane. Move on. When I realized on two occasions that I alone could not make the changes that I wished to be made within a faith community, I moved away from that into individual peace.


See the "move on" statements above? Those are the beginnings of your contradictions. There's more to come.

Priate, more than one person on here has said that I have no honesty and integrity. And most of them were atheists. To me, integrity is giving others the same respect for their space and beliefs as you want for yourself.


Why do you continue to make these sorts of ambiguous statements regarding this board? Instead of making allusions, you should give details. Unless of course, you don't want to resolve anything or move on.

Cheer on, guys. I can't wait for the next article to laugh about where someone got beat up just because they were LDS! Joy joy!

Digusting.


No comment.

I really wish some exmos on here would really get over what the church did to them and move on. B&L is no benignly going about this, but I realize it tittlates. I understand. Way to get back at the establishment!


So your advice is to get over it and move on. Gotcha.

Every Mormon you come across is deceptive, right? They know that they're living a lie, or they're insane, so why not target them?


Your thinking is really backwards on this. It's not so much as Mormons are deceptive. It is more to the point that many Mormons are being deceived. But I'm not surprised that you don't see the other side of it.

I will say this: I think KA's method of "spreading the truth" was far more effective and tactful than B&L. He goes online, pretends to be someone he's not, puts forth contrary information for the sake of doing so, then laughs when someone gives their "testiphony". That word right there should tell you what his intent is.


I can see how effective and tactful would be something you'd appreciate. This from the author of "snarky bitch".

I'm so sorry for all the immense pain the LDS church has caused folks posting here. I was in that place, the disgusting black whore. But I moved on, and I will NOT abuse my friends, random LDS, or anyone from that church I meet because of my pain. Those people have the right to live their lives out as they see fit, and I am in no place to try to affect that.


Another "move on" statement.

But I lack integrity, so forget all I said.


You lack consistency of thought and the ability to simply say "shoot, I screwed up guys".

Guy, I've learned that on this board, wisdom is the thought du jour, you are not wise unless you are with the crowd. It's ok to post pictures of garments, call people mentally challenged, and much more, but you cannot point out when someone who is popular that week acts in a hypocticial manner. THAT is a sin.


Only God knows where the above comes from. You make it appear as though you're on topic however, you keep returning to your participation on this board. Remember those "move on" statements? More comments to follow regarding that.

I just don't understand why people here defend certain actions, simply because it's being done to Mormons, when they know, if it were any other demographic, they'd be all in their sense of social justice. It seems that their individual experiences with PEOPLE in a church, flawed, scared, ignorant people justifies them taking people who they do not know and harassing them.


This board is largely about Mormons. That's why you see it here. Porter harrassed no one.

It was PEOPLE who made me feel the way I did as a Mormon. The culture. I have some problems with LDS inc, but I will not take a whole people and demean them because of what I felt. That is so base.

I just can't see the justification for what B&L is doing. I think he needs to move on with his life now.


Another "move on" statement. I've lost count of how many I bolded in just the few posts I cherry picked for this post. Now here they come to bite you in the behind:

And also, as far as my integrity, until the statement by those who made it is recanted, I'll always be outraged.


So what you're saying here is that if Porter is outraged due to his experiences with Mormonism, he should move on, but when it comes to you, and stuff on a message board, you yourself can't move on. Got it.

When I leave here there will be people to say that I was good to them and helped them. I make a point of doing so, even to those who may have hurt me. It's who I am. I don't appreciate anyone messing with that based on an internet exchange. They will get all my fury over such a thing.


Okay, got it. Here is a brief summary of what you've presented.

If Porter (or anyone else) is outraged by their experiences with Mormonism, they should get over it and move on. They shouldn't bother anyone else with it and maybe find some individual peace.

If you are outraged by your experiences on a message board, you will always be outraged and people will get all your "fury" about it, and you're fully justified about harping on it here and another board.

You do see the irony in that, don't you?

Jersey Girl
Last edited by Google Feedfetcher on Thu May 08, 2008 5:26 am, edited 10 times in total.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

rcrocket wrote:The mods have edited one of my posts in this thread without so indicating. So much for free speech.

Rather than divert the thread to Telestial or Outer Darkness, a statement using font and color was edited to remove the font and color. Absurd!!! I come here to say what I want.


Bob...what post was deleted?
_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

RockHeaded wrote:Got a question. Is there a marriage license for Joseph Smith and Hellen Kimball?


Got a question. Are there any marriage licenses for Warren Jeffs and his teenage brides?
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

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_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

For Rockheaded:

Image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Mar_Kimball

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-He ... imball.htm

This next one has a statement from Todd Compton regarding his view as to whetehr or not the marriage was ever consumated. he has said that of the 33 marriages there are known to be four offspring aside from the children he had with Emma, he does not feel that the marriage with Helen was consumated. I personally don't see that it matters one way or another.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith's ... oung_women
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Moving on to your page 2 posts.

Sam Harris wrote:I'm sorry all, but I cannot bring myself to believe that young people who have spent their whole lives in a religious construct, or even converts who do not know any better are WILLINGLY misleading anyone. To say that they are is dishonest, and it's a feeble excuse used so that one can mistreat another.


I read all of the posts up to this one of yours. I see no posts by any posters who claimed that the missionaries are "WILLINGLY misleading anyone". If I overlooked something, please post it.


The missionaries are not "fair game". Another person's life and spiritual path are not a game at all. And to assume that when the "truth" is broken to another person in jest, that it doesn't hurt as much as it did for many of us when we reached that point is again, a feeble excuse.


Missionaries who volunteer to "man" online chat forums are fair game by virtue of their volunteerism.

Many TBMs bear their testimony as a defense against things like this.


Yes, they do.

B&L, you need REAL therapy, not the "cheap" therapy this board provides. Perhaps if some of you would get on with the healing process of leaving the church, it would be of less interest to you, and you would be far more at peace.


Why do you think he needs to get on with the "healing process"? Because he intentionally set a trap?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Continuing on with page 2 posts:

Sam Harris wrote:
mms wrote:Let's say it was not Boaz who asked the question. Let's say it was an investigator who had most of the missionary discussions and was committed for baptism and then saw the NYT column and thought, "I did not know that. If that is true, I would like to look further into this before I get baptized." Let's say that person then goes online to ask the Church through its official missionary channels whether the statement that Joseph Smith married a 14 year old girl is true. Let's say he got the same missionary Boaz did and the missionary gave the same answer. Let's say he trusted that answer because he has developed a relationship of trust with the church's missionaries. So he gets baptized. Ten years later, after reading all of the church-approved materials (Ensign, priesthood manuals, Gospel Principles, standard wroks all the way through, Truth Restored, Jesus the Christ, A Marvelous Work and Wonder, etc.), he still doesn't know about Helen Kimball, but finally feels like he has time to read some "extra" stuff about church history and he learns about Helen Kimball. He remembers back to the day he asked that missionary--he thinks the church deceived him; he reads more and feels more deceived; he leaves the church because when it mattered most, the church lied to him through its official channels.

What's worse? What Boaz did or what the missionary did? Is it possible to think that Boaz did a service by educating the missionary on an issue that very well may come up again considering the NYT article and other media coverage re FLDS?

(Serious question. I am not sure. It was what came to my mind and I have not thought it through, so hoping folks here can help.)


You are taking individual missionaries and making them responsible for their leaders. You are ignoring the pressures, indoctrination, and cultural issues that they deal with, the same as many of you BIC exmos. I don't think that if it were you all on the other end of the stick years ago, you would like to be seen as maliciously intending to deceive.

The missionaries taught me wrong, too. But I don't believe they are bad people, they were obeying the establishment. The average 19-21 year-old doesn't posess that much of a capacity to use long-term thinking and I don't know that many whose logic skills are that strong that they are going to be questioning every little thing. They did what they were told and pressured to do, and they should be pitied, not attacked for that.


Who stated that the missionaries are "bad people"? You are injecting things into your comments that are irrelevant to what has been stated on this thread. I see nothing in mms's comments that indicate "attack".

Do you?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

In as much as not all the wives of Joseph Smith are listed in the Church records, could we assume that some were for time only?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

RockHeaded wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:
RockHeaded wrote:Got a question. Is there a marriage license for Joseph Smith and Hellen Kimball?
yes there is.


Where?


Hey Rock, are you implying that these marriages where bogus? Some form of trickery for favors?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Jersey Girl, I will keep this short.

I saw the initial thread in which B&L acted with utter glee that he could go online and chat with missionaries. He is doing so in order to harass Mormons. His posts clearly state that, but I understand why he is defended.

What I do not understand is why it is ok to continue to dwell on what the church did to you, but if you take the same actions that go on here and apply it to any other demographic, it's not ok.

Mormons have the same cultural and social problems as many other groups. Why single them out? It would not be okay for me to go up to the average black person in the projects and proceed to "talk" to them with the intent to "educate", knowing that my thoughts deemed them less than me for the choices they've made. It is not ok for me to put them in situations that would embarrass them or demean them (oh, but you don't know that happened!!!), because I made different choices that put me in a different place in my life.

I have plenty of statistic family members that I could apply the same logic used here to. I could argue with them, I could tell them how they're living their life in the "wrong" way, I could go on and on. And it wouldn't be worth a damn, if they themselves had not come to the conclusion on their own that a change was needed. So I let them sit in the victim mentality of how all white people are out to get them, I let them stay on public assistance that they don't need, and that I won't get (childcare vouchers) when my baby is born. I let them continue in their lives, because it is theirs, and no thought or opinion of mine is going to change theirs until they are ready and open to recieve the information that I have.

Yes, many of you on here have found a better way. But you fail to understand that some people don't want your better way, and you need to back off.

I don't think that many people here are that concerned for LDS. I really do not. I think there is a lot of bitterness about past experiences, and people are using "concern" as an excuse. You go up to people who may not even be expecting you to, and proceed to tell them things from your point of view (I'm speaking in general to the exmo who feels his POV is the "right" one), as if they need to hear you.

It is my belief that no one individual, or even the group on here who wish to are going to make the LDS church fall. I'm sorry, it's not going to happen. Sure, things are changing, but it will take many many more years, if not generations. Face that.

To me, it is ok to go up to a person who is actively questioning and seeking, or even a person who is investigating and talk to them. But it is not okay to take a happy person and disillusion them because you think it is right. Please, let's have a tally of folks on this board who have not one illusion in life.

I do not approve of or agree with messing with another person's life path. Period. There is a lesson to be learned in every step we take, and it is not up to any of you to determine the order of someone else's steps. Leave them be and let them figure it out on their own. If they are meant to learn the "truth of the church", then they will do so. Like I said before, it's amazing how those on here who don't believe in God and are most vehement about that like to play God.

But I know I'm in the minority, so I'll leave it be. Romper room wins. I just know that I'd be so much less of a person if I took every LDS friend I had, many of whom have been so good to me, tending to me when I was ill, feeding me, praying with me, and pump up a debate, based on what I've seen and experienced. What you don't know, is I've had my conversations with all of my friends, they know why I left. I am not about to upset the pattern of their life based on my beliefs. They are stable, happy, and highly intelligent individuals. I am not messing with that.

And I'll never do it with any other Mormon. If they openly say they're questioning, we can talk. But until that point is reached, I'll mind my own business.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Sam Harris wrote:I don't think that many people here are that concerned for LDS. I really do not. I think there is a lot of bitterness about past experiences, and people are using "concern" as an excuse. You go up to people who may not even be expecting you to, and proceed to tell them things from your point of view (I'm speaking in general to the exmo who feels his POV is the "right" one), as if they need to hear you.


I agree. And, I don't see a problem here. I am interested in Mormonism because I was raised in the LDS Church. Period. Right before my mission I became interested in LDS apologetics, and over time that interest morphed into my criticisms of LDS apologetics. I still find apologetic 'sports' enjoyable. I have no illusions about being on a quest against Mormonism for the benefit of Mormons. I am not out to convert Mormons away from their Church.

My belief is that the vast majority of Mormons don't care about anti-Mormon literature or Mormon apologetics. And, I say, that is all the better for them. The funny things is that in my case I hardly read any anti-Mormon literature, per se. I came at the whole thing through LDS apologetics, which effectively de-converted me from Mormonism.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
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