Perspectives

[_It occurs to me . . .]

How many justifications for hideous practices begin with:

I understand how you have a problem with it, I really do. The problem is that you need to understand that this is of God. You need to stop making God into who you want him to be and start trying to bring your own mind into an understanding of who God is and why he would have such a commandment. Seek out what the doctrine and lesson is behind it. Start from the position that you have received a witness of the spirit that the church is true, and operate from that rock of firm foundation.

Go find out all you can in regards to what is entailed in the Abrahamic Covenant. Study out the nature of God and the life he lives.

There is nothing sick and twisted in this.

Drink the Kool-aid, this is what God wants! There is nothing sick or twisted in this. You just have to understand the mind of God! Is this really milk before meat? Or just milk before Kool-aid?

[_ludwigm]

LOL, milk and meat from a sacred cow.

The Best Of Mark Twain wrote :
- Sacred Cows make the best hamburgers.

... and some other with some link to Mormonism ...
- Get the facts first. You can distort them later.
- Faith is believing what you know ain't so.
- In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination.
- It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them.

[_Inconceivable]

Joseph approached the Father or Elder brothers first and asked permission to ask the girls to marry him. Then he asked them and asked them to receive a personal revelation that it was the right thing to do. Add to this the fact that he was not around as much as he no doubt wished he could have been. No one was locked up, no one was wrongfully compelled. Much of this was done in secret because at the time it needed to be as most of the members were not yet ready to receive it, it had to be brought in gradually. I think it took almost 15 years before it became common knowledge.

Sometimes he asked. His only legitimate father in law did not give him permission so he took her anyway. The other potential father in laws were promised what is not doctrinal - granting eternal life for the entire family - which included eternal riches and many women for the man. The whoredoms began in this life, though. Smith told his flock they would only receive an affirmative answer. So those most "faithful" to him prayed until they self fulfilled the prophesy. The Laws and a few others did say, "Hell no".

I can honestly say that I would have felt compelled to file a complaint against him. But where? Not in his city.

Smith was the mayor, head of his own militia and leader of the biggest church in his own city with a city charter that did well to protect him from outsiders.

Not everyone is ready to offer their daughter up to the God of Whoredoms - not right away anyway. Neither are frogs willing to remain in boiling water if they're thrown into it - they must succomb to it by degrees.

I cannot think of one other commandment that required gradual acceptance (WoW was not a commandment but an invitation - regardless of it's evolution). I don't believe there are any. Kindof live the law of chastity, sortof pay tithing (tithing means 1/10), love your neighbor occasionally. Forgive your enemy if you feel like it. Without charity, you are.. well.. still something. No, the church has always been known for it's definitive stands.

I understand how you have a problem with it, I really do. The problem is.. that you need to understand that this is of God. You need to stop making God into who you want him to be and start trying to bring your own mind into an understanding of who God is and why he would have such a commandment. Seek out what the doctrine and lesson is behind it. Start from the position that you have received a witness of the spirit that the church is true, and operate from that rock of firm foundation...

Gaz, I served an honorable mission. I received clues that the church is true all of my life. Big clues. It is true if I am to believe my spiritual manifestations. But it only meshes with "faithful" history. Why?

God is what spiritual manifestations tell you He is (and scriptural accounts as well). Here's a thought. Those that have died are not far from us. I think some are in denial of their new realities, however disturbing to their faith they may be. Perhaps they remain to shore up belief by meddling in spiritual manefestations, our night dreams etc. What you think is from God might be a well intentioned disturbed ancestor. I'm a 5th generation of quite a few Mormon nuts living and dead.

Look at all the GA's with hierarchal pioneer roots. Spiritual tampering and Meddling? Who knows.

That first position you recommend we start at might be what puts us on the wrong path. All I know is that some of my manifestations were bald faced wrong, well intentioned or not.

Worth starting a new thread about.

[_truth dancer]

Your seriously going to compare some guy who locked up and raped his daughter to Joseph Smith and polygamy?

I'm trying to show you how all disgusting, cruel, horrific behavior usually begins slowly... milk before meat. Your claim that if someone is righteous enough they will understand how horrible things are really holy is twisted.

As I stated, you are basically saying that once one becomes a "true believer" (in the Hoffer sense of the word), he/she will do anything; absolutely ANYTHING. No questions asked.

Joseph approached the Father or Elder brothers first and asked permission to ask the girls to marry him. Then he asked them and asked them to receive a personal revelation that it was the right thing to do. Add to this the fact that he was not around as much as he no doubt wished he could have been. No one was locked up, no one was wrongfully compelled. Much of this was done in secret because at the time it needed to be as most of the members were not yet ready to receive it, it had to be brought in gradually. I think it took almost 15 years before it became common knowledge.

Joseph Smith manipulated girls and women and even men to allow himself to engage in sexual misconduct. Simple as this. Did you read about that other cult leader who was arrested yesterday? Listen to his followers, his family, his victims. They sound like you. The leader sounds like Joseph Smith.

I understand how you have a problem with it, I really do. The problem is that you need to understand that this is of God.

You want to believe this. You do know the world is filled with people who blame God for their perversions and cruelty right?

You can't see it because you are a believer, just like those who follow other men can't see that they are not following truth.

As I said before, I tire of people using God as the excuse to engage in horrific abusive behavior. I really do.

You need to stop making God into who you want him to be and start trying to bring your own mind into an understanding of who God is and why he would have such a commandment.

Or... might it be that it is those men who believe girls and women are here for their good sexual pleasure the ones who are pretending to know God?

You are right about one thing... if there is a God/Man, the only conclusion one can draw from scripture, and from the teachings/behavior of Joseph Smith is that he is a horrible, horrible, woman hating deity.

Seek out what the doctrine and lesson is behind it.

Yeah, like women are owned by men and exist for their sexual pleasure? Or that God sexually uses girls and women to bring to pass his work? Don't think so.

Start from the position that you have received a witness of the spirit that the church is true, and operate from that rock of firm foundation.

We go back to the "true believer" syndrome. You put it well however. If one is a true believer then they will find excuses for any horror and cruelty. LDS true believers are not the only ones who do this. I don't think it is a healthy way to exist in life.

Why not step back and really look at what is holy rather than just try to make horrific behavior good?

Go find out all you can in regards to what is entailed in the Abrahamic Covenant. Study out the nature of God and the life he lives.

Did this Gaz... Rich and powerful nomadic tribal men came up with a belief that God blesses them with land, animals, possessions and women. OK, and this is supposed to convince me that God is good? That polygamy is of God.

Nope... twisted it is.

~dancer~

[_Inconceivable]

Go find out all you can in regards to what is entailed in the Abrahamic Covenant. Study out the nature of God and the life he lives.

There is nothing sick and twisted in this.

Abraham turned Hagar and his very own son out into the wilderness. Cursed them. Half of his lineage - which still exist on earth.

Dead beat dad. What a legacy.


The nature of God? Or the nature of Abraham?

[_degaston]

A year ago I took a road trip through New England with my mom/kids. In Vermont we made a few stops that included the Joseph Smith birthplace and Brigham Young birthplace. At the Smith site we saw a visitors center, a huge monument and plenty of parking. At the Brigham Young site we just saw a plaque on the side of the road. I wonder if the LDS church has any plans to build any monument and/or visitors' center there. Or is the church trying to keep Brigham Young more low-key now. He certainly left a legacy of quotes that helps us all better understand the Mormon doctrines on atonement, nature of God, marriage, etc. It's hard to minimize Brigham's role in Mormonism as every member of the FP/12 can trace their priesthood lineage to Brigham Young, the BYU brand name would be hard to carry on if Brigham Young were not in it and the numbers of his descendants in the church must run in the thousands and even tens of thousands. Oh I forgot to mention that at the Smith visitor center near Sharon I saw something on the wall about one of his wives but all the other wives that Smith had went totally unmentioned. I immediately complained to my mom that this was a shoddy way to present history and that it turned me off completely. I recall that the wife mentioned was named Emma. Interestingly, Smith was a distant cousin of Brigham Young and also Sir Winston Churchill and the current US president George W. Bush.

[_Gazelam]

Gaz,

If this is too off topic, just tell me to take a hike. Regarding "milk before meat" and setting up a theological foundation, so to speak. Do you think that EV's also do this? If so, in what way and why? If not, why don't they?

The problem I see with EV's is that they have no foundation to operate from. A belief in Christ is a great thing, but EV's are operating from a foundation laid by the Catholic Church and its traditions. Try going to a christian chat room and discussing a topic like "If there is a Father in Heaven, as Jesus refered to Him, is there a Mother in Heaven?" and see how long you last. The majority of them have yet to shake of the false traditions of Catholocism.

They can't even agree on the necessity of Baptism. See what I mean? What base are they operating from?

[_Jersey Girl]

Gaz,

If this is too off topic, just tell me to take a hike. Regarding "milk before meat" and setting up a theological foundation, so to speak. Do you think that EV's also do this? If so, in what way and why? If not, why don't they?

The problem I see with EV's is that they have no foundation to operate from. A belief in Christ is a great thing, but EV's are operating from a foundation laid by the Catholic Church and its traditions. Try going to a christian chat room and discussing a topic like "If there is a Father in Heaven, as Jesus refered to Him, is there a Mother in Heaven?" and see how long you last. The majority of them have yet to shake of the false traditions of Catholocism.

They can't even agree on the necessity of Baptism. See what I mean? What base are they operating from?

A belief in Christ is a great thing but EV's have no foundation to operate from? I should think that a belief in Christ is the foundation.

What base? The Bible.

[_TygerFang]

The blindness of religous followers and the manipulative nature of religous leaders are always unbelievable and unforgivable when you hear about it, unless it's your own religion.

[_Bond...James Bond]

The blindness of religous followers and the manipulative nature of religous leaders are always unbelievable and unforgivable when you hear about it, unless it's your own religion.

To quote Dr. Shades:

Apostasy: When your church changes.
Continuing Revelation: When my church changes.