Can we now admit that the church still misleads . . .

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_Inconceivable
_Emeritus
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Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:44 am

Post by _Inconceivable »

mms wrote:No "officially" in this one:

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discontinued the practice of polygamy in 1890."


May 10, 2006 press release admonishing media to be more accurate.


oops sorry,

Church of Jesus Christ
Saints
Discontinued
Practice
Polygamy
1890 (and other specific dates)
Accurate..

..it's a freaking long list
_karl61
_Emeritus
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Post by _karl61 »

It amazes me that at nineteen that I actually went in and told these people the truth; no wonder they excommunicated me.
I want to fly!
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

"The Church discontinued polygamy officially in 1890 . . . . "


And, this is a true statement. The Senate Reed Smoot hearings tried to show that this was a lie; they subpoenaed witnesses and took testimony.

The hearings established a few facts which qualify the above statement:

1. Woodruff having died, his successors were unsure as to whether the amnesty deal he struck with the government meant that there could no longer be plural marriages outside the U.S. Many of those continued for some time until 1904, and then those that happened after 1904 usually led to excommunication.

2. Woodruff having died, his successors were unsure as to whether the amnesty deal required prior polygs to stop cohabiting with their plural wives (as opposed to taking on new wives). The Church leadership decided that, indeed, the deal required them to stop cohabiting, but as Pres. Smith testified before the Senate, he could not bring himself to abandon his families, and his wives, and would not do it despite his understanding of the 1890 deal.

3. The Church leadership plainly knew that the deal prohibited the taking of new wives. But, there is evidence that at least two apostles disagreed with the deal in the first place; both were excommunicated. It is likely that others disagreed and may even have taken on new wives, but such action was contrary to the will of God. We don't know if these other out-of-harmony general authorities were disciplined. My own ancestor was excommunicated for three marriages after the manifesto.
_degaston
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Coverup of polygamy at the Joseph Smith birthplace

Post by _degaston »

One thing I find to be utterly shameful is how my church still covers up the polygamy of Joseph Smith at the birthplace memorial visitors center near Sharon, Vermont. I was just there a year ago and witnessed firsthand this shameful coverup. This type of coverup game only feeds more fuel to the fire of the critics. I think I'll email my Bishop to let him know of this sin so the church can repent.
_rcrocket

Re: Coverup of polygamy at the Joseph Smith birthplace

Post by _rcrocket »

alex71va@yahoo.com wrote:One thing I find to be utterly shameful is how my church still covers up the polygamy of Joseph Smith at the birthplace memorial visitors center near Sharon, Vermont. I was just there a year ago and witnessed firsthand this shameful coverup. This type of coverup game only feeds more fuel to the fire of the critics. I think I'll email my Bishop to let him know of this sin so the church can repent.


I wonder what "cover-up" is going on, since Deseret Books is filled with books -- some authorized by the first presidency -- which discuss polygamy in detail. Moreover, the Church's own web-based family history site publishes all of the names of his wives.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

bcspace wrote:I don't see a problem. The whole thing was put on hold in 1890 while feelers were put out to see (in the US) if the Supreme Court would rule for us and (in Mexico and Canada) the practice could be continued there. When all avenues were exhausted, the 1890 stance was adopted. As long as they saw legal avenues, no one should be uncomfortable that the Church sought all means to continue to freely practice it's religion. The same kind of thing is done today among all groups of people for many different reasons.


Here is the problem. The manifesto was a carefully worded document designed to appease the federal government while not officaially abandoning polygamy at all. You so much as admit it above.

Polygamy did not officially cease until the early 1900's.

But the Church portrays the manifesto as a revelation that stopped polygamy in 1890. This is not the case. To state it as such obscres the truth. Most members believe the that the 1890 manifesto was the official end of polygamy. Why should they think otherwise? The Church they trust tells them it is so.
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

Jason Bourne wrote:
bcspace wrote:I don't see a problem. The whole thing was put on hold in 1890 while feelers were put out to see (in the US) if the Supreme Court would rule for us and (in Mexico and Canada) the practice could be continued there. When all avenues were exhausted, the 1890 stance was adopted. As long as they saw legal avenues, no one should be uncomfortable that the Church sought all means to continue to freely practice it's religion. The same kind of thing is done today among all groups of people for many different reasons.


Here is the problem. The manifesto was a carefully worded document designed to appease the federal government while not officaially abandoning polygamy at all. You so much as admit it above.

Polygamy did not officially cease until the early 1900's.

But the Church portrays the manifesto as a revelation that stopped polygamy in 1890. This is not the case. To state it as such obscres the truth. Most members believe the that the 1890 manifesto was the official end of polygamy. Why should they think otherwise? The Church they trust tells them it is so.


You have some facts wrong. At the time of the 1980 manifesto, the Church reached an amnesty deal with the government saying that it would cease plural marriages. Pres. Smith acknowledged the deal explicitly in Senate testimony. Pres. Smith also acknowledged that Pres. Woodruff ordered an end to plural marriage in the U.S., and that Pres. Woodruff stopped living with his plural wives. But, Pres. Smith also acknowledged that other general authorities were slow to comply, including himself Pres. Smith did not take on new wives but continued to cohabit with old wives.

So, it wasn't really a matter of being "carefully worded" when you view it in context with the deal reached with the Justice Department. No new plural marriages. None.

Did all comply? No. And, indeed, they still do not comply.
_Boaz & Lidia
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Post by _Boaz & Lidia »

Jason Bourne wrote:
bcspace wrote:I don't see a problem. The whole thing was put on hold in 1890 while feelers were put out to see (in the US) if the Supreme Court would rule for us and (in Mexico and Canada) the practice could be continued there. When all avenues were exhausted, the 1890 stance was adopted. As long as they saw legal avenues, no one should be uncomfortable that the Church sought all means to continue to freely practice it's religion. The same kind of thing is done today among all groups of people for many different reasons.


Here is the problem. The manifesto was a carefully worded document designed to appease the federal government while not officaially abandoning polygamy at all. You so much as admit it above.

Polygamy did not officially cease until the early 1900's.

But the Church portrays the manifesto as a revelation that stopped polygamy in 1890. This is not the case. To state it as such obscres the truth. Most members believe the that the 1890 manifesto was the official end of polygamy. Why should they think otherwise? The Church they trust tells them it is so.
Who are you and what did you do with the church loving, doctrine defending Jason????
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

People are often accused of pulling statements from the church from decades ago in order to demonstrate that the church is seeking to mislead re certain aspects of tis history. These statements are from two weeks ago, a year ago, etc. I simply cannot believe it continues. Truly just baffles me.



Perhaps you're an easy person to baffle, mms.

bc's thumbnail explanation is perfectly reasonable.

I think, given developments during the last thirty of forty years, we should be very, very careful in taking the side of the state against a religious out-group just because we find one or more of their practices unpalatable, in our own estimation.


David Koresh and his followers, though certainly believing things I and other Americans would find odd or ridiculous, was, nonetheless, harmless. However, based upon nothing more than hearsay evidence, and the paranoia of a virulently anti-religious federal government, fearful and hostile to groups given to succession from the common culture, even if doing no harm to those around them, the government physically assaulted the Koresh compound and burned it to the ground, killing adults and children in the process.

Polygamy, whatever one may think about the particular LDS version (and there is no reason to believe, traditional Protestant comprehensions of the issue nothwithstanding, that all forms of plural marriage are equal, or necessarily negative in their consequences), involved, as practiced by LDS, the same moral and ethical standards obtaining in monogamous relationships (which were still the overwhelming majority of relationships in nineteenth century Mormonism). Polygamy, as all other callings or ordinations in the Church, were entered into willingly, by woman as well as men who were called to that practice, and given the truely small percentage of LDS who actually ever engaged in the practice, the continued preoccupation (especially in a secular culture that for several generations has gone out of the way to glorify serial sexual relationships that amount, for all intents and purposes, to random, sequential polygamy) is rather startling.

Traditional Christians are really the only one's who have a leg to stand on in this debate, which I understand and commiserate with (and I would not want, nor do I think I would be able to, practice plural marriage, at least, not in this life). Secularists will have to go begging, I'm afraid, until they can at least at first accept the general sexual standards of the law of Chastity accepted by LDS and, in basically the same form, the remainder of Christendom.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Boaz & Lidia wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
bcspace wrote:I don't see a problem. The whole thing was put on hold in 1890 while feelers were put out to see (in the US) if the Supreme Court would rule for us and (in Mexico and Canada) the practice could be continued there. When all avenues were exhausted, the 1890 stance was adopted. As long as they saw legal avenues, no one should be uncomfortable that the Church sought all means to continue to freely practice it's religion. The same kind of thing is done today among all groups of people for many different reasons.


Here is the problem. The manifesto was a carefully worded document designed to appease the federal government while not officaially abandoning polygamy at all. You so much as admit it above.

Polygamy did not officially cease until the early 1900's.

But the Church portrays the manifesto as a revelation that stopped polygamy in 1890. This is not the case. To state it as such obscres the truth. Most members believe the that the 1890 manifesto was the official end of polygamy. Why should they think otherwise? The Church they trust tells them it is so.
Who are you and what did you do with the church loving, doctrine defending Jason????


Oh you know me. I am the anonymous lukewarm fickle fringer NOMer that defends when necessary and criticizes when necessary as well.
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