Introducing .... Buckeye

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Welcome to Shady Acres.

You listed a few bad things about you... Great...

Did you have sex with any of the laurels ?

If so, was it becuase god sent Guido the angel and threatened you with his flaming sword?

[_Buckeye]

Welcome to Shady Acres.

You listed a few bad things about you... Great...

Did you have sex with any of the laurels ?

If so, was it becuase god sent Guido the angel and threatened you with his flaming sword?

Well, I can't say they didn't warn me about this board.

Helen Mar Kimball was a few week shy of 15 when she married Joseph, which would have made her a Mia Maid, not a Laurel, though of course those designations didn't exist at the time. Please note that while I can acknowledge the marriage, I do not believe there is evidence as to whether the relationship was immediately intimate.

[_truth dancer]

Helen Mar Kimball was a few week shy of 15 when she married Joseph, which would have made her a Mia Maid, not a Laurel, though of course those designations didn't exist at the time. Please note that while I can acknowledge the marriage, I do not believe there is evidence as to whether the relationship was immediately intimate.

Hi Buckeye... welcome to the board! :-)

I thought Helen Mar was three months short of her fifteenth birthday... could you give us the dates for your claim that she was a few weeks shy?

The fact remains, she was fourteen years old, basically a middle school girl.

To be honest, I struggle with men excusing Joseph Smith's behavior as if a grown thirty-six (If I recall correctly) year old married man, "marrying" a young girl is somehow ok if she is almost fifteen.

It is disgusting and cruel no matter how you frame it.

Just saying... :-)

~dancer~

[_guy sajer]

c

OMOW2 is right. All the stuff you posted would only matter *IF* you also claimed that God told you to do all those things.

I take it then that you would find irrelevant anything that Joseph did but which did not claim God told him to do - such as destroying the Expositor's press?

I'd expand this a bit and make it more general--one's behavior (particularly the extent to which one actually practices what he preaches) is a useful "signal" in evaluating one's claims to act and speak on behalf of deity.

Destroying a printing press that revealed one's pattern of adulterous affairs and sexual misconduct/exploitation is indeed a useful signal in judging the validity of Joseph Smith's claims.[/quote]

Since you and the good Doctor gave similar responses, I'll respond just once.

First, why is someone's integrity (actually practicing what he preaches) a "signal" for evaluating whether they speak for deity? Can you point me to anyone who speaks for deity? Can you then compare that person's integrity against the integrity of non-annoited persons? [/quote]

Just one response. Aw, c'mon, how about at least one more time?

First, I don't think anyone speaks for deity, so I can't point him/her out. I can point out many who think that they speak for deity. How about, oh, Joseph Smith?

Can I compare his integrity to a non-anointed person? You mean all the other men who aren't serial adulterers, who don't manipulate women into bed by virtue of power asymmetries, who don't send men away and then take up with their wives, who don't pretend to know how to find buried treasure--I'm sure we could find a few of them.

Second, I would agree that to judge someone we must "expand" the analysis and look at their behavior "general[ly]". Would you agree then, that to judge Joseph (or Brigham or whomever), we can't merely show one side of them - either their successes or their failures, but we must show both their successes and failures? It seems hypocritical for critics to lambast the church for not telling the "whole story", when their stories are themselves so one-sided. I guess facts that show Joseph or the church in a good light, while true, just aren't very useful.

I'd agree. People are morally complex. I don't expect perfection. I am perfectly willing to allow people their foibles. You're creating a straw man. I don't see anyone suggesting that Joseph Smith, or other of God's anointed, be perfect.

But, engaging in all the shenanigans that Joseph Smith did, that's not personal foible, that's outright immoral. I'm willing to concede Joseph Smith had many positive qualities, but his negative ones were of the extent and nature that they disqualify him as "second only to Jesus."

To put it in vernacular, Joseph Smith was a lying, adulterous, power hungry, manipulative, sexually exploitive scum bag, and many, many of his contemporaries outside his circle of sycophants and followers who knew him generally thought so as well.

Finally, signals are critical. They are what humans use to evaluate claims. People commonly use personal rectitude as a signal of divine approbation. For example, Jerry Swaggart was a whore monger and liar. That is important evidence to assess his claims of divine approbation.

I proceed from the very reasonable assumption that were God to choose a mortal to be his bearer of truth, this mortal, for his message to be widely seen as credible, must be a person of upstanding moral rectitude. Joseph Smith was of very low moral rectitude. Certainly not "second only to Jesus."

[_guy sajer]

Welcome to Shady Acres.

You listed a few bad things about you... Great...

Did you have sex with any of the laurels ?

If so, was it becuase god sent Guido the angel and threatened you with his flaming sword?

Well, I can't say they didn't warn me about this board.

Helen Mar Kimball was a few week shy of 15 when she married Joseph, which would have made her a Mia Maid, not a Laurel, though of course those designations didn't exist at the time. Please note that while I can acknowledge the marriage, I do not believe there is evidence as to whether the relationship was immediately intimate.

While it may not have been that uncommon for 15 year old girls to marry, it was quite uncommon that they marry middle-aged, already married men, whether they be a Beehive or Mia Maid.

[_Buckeye]

Hi Buckeye... welcome to the board! :-)

I thought Helen Mar was three months short of her fifteenth birthday... could you give us the dates for your claim that she was a few weeks shy?

The fact remains, she was fourteen years old, basically a middle school girl.

To be honest, I struggle with men excusing Joseph Smith's behavior as if a grown thirty-six (If I recall correctly) year old married man, "marrying" a young girl is somehow ok if she is almost fifteen.

It is disgusting and cruel no matter how you frame it.

Just saying... :-)

~dancer~

Thanks for the welcome. Though I'm not sure how you guessed I am male :)

This wasn't the point of my post, but since we're on it I'll go for one more response. I'll take your word on the months vs weeks. Technically, "a few months" could also be "a few weeks". It doesn't materially affect her age. Personally, I don't think any of us should be "framing" the issue. For instance, Helen Kimball was not "a middle school girl". There was no middle school at the time. We should be wary of imposing our notions of when children become adults onto society with different notions. I think it best to let Joseph and Helen speak to whether the arrangement was "disgusting" or "cruel."

[_guy sajer]

Howdy. I’m fairly new the LDS message board scene. Most of my time has been spent at MADB.

It is sometimes argued by critics that the church should not teach anyone the gospel without first informing them of, for lack a better phrase, “the dirt.” Not being sure where to begin here, I thought I’d introduce myself by trying this out. So here are some reasons you should ignore everything I have to say:

1) I swore once. Just once, but it was a big one.
2) At a family reunion when I was a kid (eight or nine If I recall correctly) I stole a polished rock from the campground store so I could skip it across the river. I got caught.
3) I threw a baseball through my window once on accident.
4) I sometimes picked on my younger siblings growing up.
5) I sometimes struggle getting out of bed in the morning.
6) I have lied, and continue to lie, to my children about Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, and El Cucuy.

I could go on, but you get the gist. Looking at the above list, I don’t expect anyone to respond to this post. But if you do, please be sure to include your bad history so that if I’m ever persuaded by your logic, I can at least fall back to impeaching your character.

Oh yeah, by the way, welcome, glad to have you here.

[_Buckeye]

guy sajer,

My point about integrity is that if you don't believe in God, much less in a God that calls on men to work for him, how can you begin to define how such a man would act? I'm glad that you're open to looking at the good side of Joseph (hopefull the church too).

As to Helen Kimball, I will concede that it was quite unusual in Joseph's day for a woman of any age to marry an already married man. However, I don't agree that the age difference was "quite uncommon". It was not at all uncommon for younger women to marry older men. There were many reasons for marriage apart from love, such as security. Even today we see large age gaps - consider Senator McCain.

I also must note that John Taylor's statements in Section 135 are to the effect that Joseph did more for the salvation of mankind than anyone other than Christ, not that he was more righteous than anyone other than Christ. That award would likely go to the millions of children who have died before accountability.

[_karl61]

Helen Mar Kimball was a few week shy of 15 when she married Joseph, which would have made her a Mia Maid, not a Laurel, though of course those designations didn't exist at the time. Please note that while I can acknowledge the marriage, I do not believe there is evidence as to whether the relationship was immediately intimate.

Hi Buckeye... welcome to the board! :-)

I thought Helen Mar was three months short of her fifteenth birthday... could you give us the dates for your claim that she was a few weeks shy?

The fact remains, she was fourteen years old, basically a middle school girl.

To be honest, I struggle with men excusing Joseph Smith's behavior as if a grown thirty-six (If I recall correctly) year old married man, "marrying" a young girl is somehow ok if she is almost fifteen.

It is disgusting and cruel no matter how you frame it.

Just saying... :-)

~dancer~

It was just as disgusting back then as it is now - remember Joseph could take your wife away and give her to someone else, he did not recognize legal marriages, and sent men on missions and then was "sealed" to their wife or teenage daughter. Newspapers were screaming about it back then and now we have CNN.

[_guy sajer]

guy sajer,

My point about integrity is that if you don't believe in God, much less in a God that calls on men to work for him, how can you begin to define how such a man would act? I'm glad that you're open to looking at the good side of Joseph (hopefull the church too).

Please not that at one time I did believe in God, and I believed Joseph Smith was a prophet. I believed this for nigh 40 years.

But for the very reasons (among many others) I recite here, I reached the conclusion that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God but was a very immoral man who abused his position of authority for his own sexual gratification. My disillusionment for Joseph Smith came BEFORE I lost belief in God and Joseph Smith, not after.