White and Delightsome

[_Joey]

Is there no greater national media applicability to the scriptural phrase of "white and delightsome" than to its application to the crowd at Energy Solution Center in SLC??!!!

My son and I are watching the Jazz-Laker game at our local watering hole tonight and he says: "Dad, there is not a black person in the entire arena outside of the two team benches! I guess that's the way Brigham Young wanted it to be!". We used to live in SLC when he was younger and he still remembers the culture!!!

[_KimberlyAnn]

In Salt Lake City last fall, I didn't see one African American.

But, SLC isn't the only place lacking in diverse culture.

I live in a comfortable suburb in NE Oklahoma. I took my girls to Washington DC a year ago and on the Metro, my six year old Chloe loudly remarked, with her cute little lisp, "I've never theen though many black people!" I was mortified and felt like crawling under my seat. Luckily, the black folks near us were amused, and they were even more amused when Chloe said, "I know how to hip-hop danth!". She then broke into a full-scale routine, ending by pounding her fist on her chest and saying, "Peath out."

I've since made it a point to get out of our neighborhood more. :)

KA

[_JonasS]

By white and delightsome it is not suggesting white as in skin colour, but rather the righteousness of the people. In the Bible when refering to white garment it is refering to righteousness.

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/display ... iew&id=508

Because some critics consider Joseph Smith to be the author of the Book of Mormon, they see its supposed "racist" epithets as reflecting nineteenth-century American views rather than the views of the ancient Nephites. This view ignores some important facts:


There is no evidence, other than later hearsay, to indicate that Joseph Smith believed that skin color made someone inferior. On the other hand, there is clear evidence that he considered black Africans to be just as capable as whites, given the same opportunities; he also favored freeing the slaves.3

At least two black men were ordained as elders during Joseph Smith's time, and the Prophet himself signed the ordination certificate of one of them. That man, Elijah Abel, was later ordained a seventy and served as a missionary.4

The Book of Abraham, frequently cited by later generations as evidence that blacks should not be ordained to the priesthood, says nothing about skin color and, in any event, describes a struggle between Abraham and the Egyptian king over patriarchal authority, not priesthood in general (Abraham 1:21–31). One cannot read into the text anything about Egyptus being a descendant of Cain or having a black skin. Indeed, the idea of Ham having married a Cainite woman was prevalent among nineteenth-century American Protestants, from whom Latter-day Saints picked up the idea.5
Could the Nephites have been racist in their views of the Lamanites? Perhaps, in the same sense that the biblical patriarchs were racist when it came to their pagan neighbors—the Hittites, the Canaanites, and the Amorites—and did not want their offspring to marry these unbelievers. But racism in its typical sense does not seem to have been prevalent among the Nephites, considering the numbers who dissented from Nephite culture at various times to join the Lamanites. And it is recorded that whenever the Lamanites converted to the Nephite religion, the barriers separating these people dissolved (Alma 27:21–27; 3 Nephi 2:13, 14; 4 Nephi 1:17). Even before they were converted, the Nephites considered the Lamanites to be brethren, a term used more than fifty times in reference to the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon.6 This is hardly a term that one would expect to find in a society that holds racist views toward a neighboring people. And if Joseph Smith's racism is reflected in the Book of Mormon, why does that volume have large numbers of Lamanites becoming righteous—indeed, more righteous than the Nephites—in the decades before Christ's appearance?

The Nature of the Curse

Was dark skin really a curse pronounced on the Lamanites by God? That seems to be a widely held belief, but what does the Book of Mormon itself say? As reported in Alma, the Lord, speaking to Nephi, distinguished between the curse and the mark. "Behold, the Lamanites have I cursed, and I will set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed" (Alma 3:14). At the time this promise was given to Nephi, the curse had already been enacted, while the mark, a change in skin color, was yet to come. The Lord also told Nephi that others who mingled with the Lamanites (including his own posterity) would be both cursed and marked:

And again: I will set a mark upon him that mingleth his seed with thy brethren, that they may be cursed also. And again: I will set a mark upon him that fighteth against thee and thy seed. And again, I say he that departeth from thee shall no more be called thy seed; and I will bless thee, and whomsoever shall be called thy seed, henceforth and forever; and these were the promises of the Lord unto Nephi and to his seed. (Alma 3:15–17)

Nephi described how the Lamanites, as a result of their consistent rebellion against God and because of the hardness of their hearts, were cursed by being "cut off from the presence of the Lord" (2 Nephi 5:20). This curse also resulted in the Lamanites being separated from God's people with the departure of Nephi (2 Nephi 5:1–7). In connection with the curse of separation, the Lord is said to have set a mark upon the Lamanites. The purpose of the mark, according to the Book of Mormon, was to distinguish the Lamanites from the Nephites so that the Nephites would not intermarry with them and accept incorrect traditions. After Nephi had led away those who would follow him, he wrote:

And behold, the words of the Lord had been fulfilled unto my brethren, which he spake concerning them, that I should be their ruler and their teacher. Wherefore, I had been their ruler and their teacher, according to the commandments of the Lord, until the time they sought to take away my life. Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence. And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities. And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done. And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey. (2 Nephi 5:19–24)

A change in skin color would obviously not make the Lamanites "idle" or "full of mischief." These were cultural, not racial, traits. To the Nephites, who followed the law of Moses (Jarom 1:5), the Lamanite practices of "drink[ing] the blood of beasts" (Jarom 1:6) and "feeding upon beasts of prey" (Enos 1:20) would have been abhorrent, being forbidden in the Mosaic code (Leviticus 7:26–27; 11:13–20).

Despite statements by such leaders as Nephi and his brother Jacob (Jacob 3:5), some later Nephites considered being cut off from the presence of God as well as the mark upon the Lamanite skins to be a curse (Alma 3:6). Thus we read,

And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men. And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women. And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction. And it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed. Therefore, whosoever suffered himself to be led away by the Lamanites was called under that head, and there was a mark set upon him. And it came to pass that whosoever would not believe in the tradition of the Lamanites, but believed those records which were brought out of the land of Jerusalem, and also in the tradition of their fathers, which were correct, who believed in the commandments of God and kept them, were called the Nephites, or the people of Nephi, from that time forth. (Alma 3:6–11)

While at least some of the Nephites disdained the Lamanites because of their skin color, the Lord was concerned about the sinful nature of the Lamanites and merely used their physical characteristics to deter the Nephites from accepting their wicked ways. Any individual from among the Nephites who, having rejected the Nephite religion, mingled with the Lamanites brought "the same curse upon his seed" and had "a mark set upon him." Again, we see that the curse and the mark, while going together, were two different things.

It was custom throughout the Bible not to intermingle with other cultural groups, is was so that the teachings would be kept. This is discussed in the link rovided above.

[_rcrocket]

Is there no greater national media applicability to the scriptural phrase of "white and delightsome" than to its application to the crowd at Energy Solution Center in SLC??!!!

My son and I are watching the Jazz-Laker game at our local watering hole tonight and he says: "Dad, there is not a black person in the entire arena outside of the two team benches! I guess that's the way Brigham Young wanted it to be!". We used to live in SLC when he was younger and he still remembers the culture!!!

Umm. I have season tickets to the Lakers and have attended NBA games in Seattle and Denver. The same thing could be said about most of the NBA arenas in the country.

[_Mister Scratch]

Jonas---

You need to rely upon better sources, my friend. Take this, for example:

At least two black men were ordained as elders during Joseph Smith's time, and the Prophet himself signed the ordination certificate of one of them. That man, Elijah Abel, was later ordained a seventy and served as a missionary.

All of this may be true. However, Abel was denied from doing temple work for his wife, due to his race. Further, some apologists have suggested that the reason he was ordained was that he "looked 'white'".

Elsewhere in that crappy FARMS article we read:

A change in skin color would obviously not make the Lamanites "idle" or "full of mischief." These were cultural, not racial, traits.

And yet, that is precisely what the scripture says. The trouble is that these poor FARMS authors are in the very difficult position of trying to defend the impossible. Their best bet would be for the Church itself to come clean and apologize for its racist past.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Things must be getting boring on yonder board. Is JonasS another visitor from the MA&D house?

[_Mister Scratch]

Is there no greater national media applicability to the scriptural phrase of "white and delightsome" than to its application to the crowd at Energy Solution Center in SLC??!!!

My son and I are watching the Jazz-Laker game at our local watering hole tonight and he says: "Dad, there is not a black person in the entire arena outside of the two team benches! I guess that's the way Brigham Young wanted it to be!". We used to live in SLC when he was younger and he still remembers the culture!!!

Umm. I have season tickets to the Lakers and have attended NBA games in Seattle and Denver. The same thing could be said about most of the NBA arenas in the country.

That certainly isn't the case at games at the Staples Center, Bob. As you perfectly well know. (Or ought to know.)

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Perhaps the reason for less black folks in the Delta center is that they are smarter than the white folks?

Who would pay that kind of money to watch the Jazz?

[_antishock8]

Umm. I have season tickets to the Lakers and have attended NBA games in Seattle and Denver. The same thing could be said about most of the NBA arenas in the country.

Have you attended games in DC, Chicago, Charlotte, Atlanta, Miami, New Orleans, New York, or Philadelphia? I have, and you're sounding like a fecking idiot right about now.

[_JonasS]

Jonas---

You need to rely upon better sources, my friend. Take this, for example:

At least two black men were ordained as elders during Joseph Smith's time, and the Prophet himself signed the ordination certificate of one of them. That man, Elijah Abel, was later ordained a seventy and served as a missionary.

All of this may be true. However, Abel was denied from doing temple work for his wife, due to his race. Further, some apologists have suggested that the reason he was ordained was that he "looked 'white'".

Elsewhere in that crappy FARMS article we read:

A change in skin color would obviously not make the Lamanites "idle" or "full of mischief." These were cultural, not racial, traits.

And yet, that is precisely what the scripture says. The trouble is that these poor FARMS authors are in the very difficult position of trying to defend the impossible. Their best bet would be for the Church itself to come clean and apologize for its racist past.

So why do they stay then? If it were that difficult to defend, why continue to defend?