TAL BACHMAN RESPONDS TO PRESIDENT KEYES

[_Jersey Girl]

You're welcome. I am a teachable monkey mod!

or trainable....

[_Trevor]

And by the way read what your younger brother had to say about your encounter with the SP.

Just what does his younger brother have to say about it? Did I miss something in this link? I didn't find anything about Tal's younger brother there.

[_antishock8]

God. A bunch of Mormons complaining about "respect" or "protection" when they themselves dish it out either overtly or passive-aggressively. MAD is a perfect example of the kind of sandbox they have created for themselves... And yet... Here they are. Here. They. Are. Ramping up their victim status on a board that allows a free exchange of ideas.

Marg, et al.. Y'all need to grow a thich skin. Life is tough. Deal with it. No one respects you unless you merit it, and even then it's a crapshoot. Quit yer damn whining and either post or don't. But for Christ's sake you're a damn adult. Either accept the parameters offered here or go back to the MAD echo chamber. You're more than welcome to offer your opinion, but if someone thinks your opinion is stupid, a lie, a spin, or deceitful and calls it as such then deal with it. That's how things are done in the real world. This ain't Sunday School. We're not your friends. We're not family. We're not here to make you feel "awesome". We're here to read what you have to say, and then offer up a different point of view. Sometimes it's harsh, juvenile, short, asinine, intelligent, cogent, irrational, or otherwise... And I have to tell you that's a 100x better than what you get at MAD. If you prefer MAD and its censors and backpatters then have at it. More power to you. But don't expect it here, and whining about it doesn't change anything except to make you look like a biatch.

Marg isn't from MAD. Marg is an atheist with a persecution complex.

Really? Eh. *shrugs*

[_Coggins7]

Marg isn't from MAD. Marg is an atheist with a persecution complex.

She can also actually think critically, or so it appears given the lengthy debates I've had with her on occasion, and she can at least be civil and deal primarily with ideas and not personalities, which is much more than can be said for most of the resident secular humanists and militant Darwinists here.

[_antishock8]

Marg isn't from MAD. Marg is an atheist with a persecution complex.

She can also actually think critically, or so it appears given the lengthy debates I've had with her on occasion, and she can at least be civil and deal primarily with ideas and not personalities, which is much more than can be said for most of the resident secular humanists and militant Darwinists here.

[_Chap]

This place is not about protection, from ideas or other posters. This place is about the freedom to express oneself, even if one's position does not agree with the board owner's. This is the Wild Wild West. Wide open. And if you can't stand the heat, then stay out of the dang kitchen.

I think I agree with that. Given the choice between MAD rules and no rules (apart from the routing of threads to an appropriate kingdom) give me no rules any time.

[_moksha]

I think I agree with that. Given the choice between MAD rules and no rules (apart from the routing of threads to an appropriate kingdom) give me no rules any time.

Thank goodness these are not the only choices.

[_marg]

God. A bunch of Mormons complaining about "respect" or "protection" when they themselves dish it out either overtly or passive-aggressively. MAD is a perfect example of the kind of sandbox they have created for themselves... And yet... Here they are. Here. They. Are. Ramping up their victim status on a board that allows a free exchange of ideas.

Marg, et al.. Y'all need to grow a thich skin. Life is tough. Deal with it. No one respects you unless you merit it, and even then it's a crapshoot. Quit yer damn whining and either post or don't. But for Christ's sake you're a damn adult. Either accept the parameters offered here or go back to the MAD echo chamber. You're more than welcome to offer your opinion, but if someone thinks your opinion is stupid, a lie, a spin, or deceitful and calls it as such then deal with it. That's how things are done in the real world. This ain't Sunday School. We're not your friends. We're not family. We're not here to make you feel "awesome". We're here to read what you have to say, and then offer up a different point of view. Sometimes it's harsh, juvenile, short, asinine, intelligent, cogent, irrational, or otherwise... And I have to tell you that's a 100x better than what you get at MAD. If you prefer MAD and its censors and backpatters then have at it. More power to you. But don't expect it here, and whining about it doesn't change anything except to make you look like a biatch.

Marg isn't from MAD. Marg is an atheist with a persecution complex.

Really? Eh. *shrugs*

ROFL...all that typing eh antishock!

by the way, Harmony you really don't understand what my position is regarding ad homs or why, just thought I'd mention that, but unlike antishock, I'm not going to spend time typing, in order to explain why that is. People, and it is just human nature tend to look for easy routes and jump to conclusions quickly without really taking the time to gather the facts. I do it as well, especially on message boards where I just don't feel like wading through a long thread. On top of that it often is difficult on message boards determining what the issues are and why given the way the messages appear with many getting buried among non relevant posts, and tangents and mischaracterizations of what was actually said.

[_Tal Bachman]

Hi

Someone just emailed me my original RFM post, from October 26, 2003, giving a summary account of my meeting with Pres. Keyes the night before. Pretty wild to read it again after all these years.

I was going to post it...but I don't know what the point is right now. I don't see, at the moment anyway, any point in trying to convince Mormon leaders or rank-and-file that I didn't misunderstand anything. In fact, I think I'd rather they think I did misunderstand or invent everything and leave Randy in as stake president, than remove him. As I said before, I know for a fact he has done his best to help a lot of people in his stake. Better him than someone else, as far as I can see.

I lament - not least because I helped create the situation - that for me now to defend myself can only be at Randy's cost, and I just don't see what the point is of doing that. BCSpace and these other Mormon guys on FAIR jumping up and down for more drama - which, again, will only come at Randy's cost - can go screw themselves for all I care. Maybe once Randy's not the SP anymore and things have died down things will be different, I don't know.

I've obviously said way too much already, so...for now, I think I should just leave things there.

By the way, I don't know what Alex is talking about on this thread; my little brother left the church at 15, and he's never commented publicly on me leaving the church that I know of.

[_truth dancer]

Hey Tal...

You made the honorable choice. :-)

The truth is, there are many LDS leaders who have questions, doubts, and concerns. (I personally know several). They put issues "on the shelf," have faith that they will find the answers in the next life, rely on the belief that "God's ways are not man's ways," or, go into the mode of, "it doesn't matter, Mormonism is a great way to raise a family".

I sense that some believers don't want to acknowledge their own questions and doubts and certainly don't want to admit leaders may have questions as well.

But many indeed do.

And, when we read how some justify, rationalize, distort or twist truth to allow belief, it shows there were questions and concerns, even possibly doubts.

Anyway... kudos to you!

:-)

~dancer~