Brother Crockett vs...?

Post by **_Coggins7** » Sun May 11, 2008 11:53 pm

It sounds to me like an earlier version of "All you need is love," or "I'd like to buy the world a Coke."

That's what you have to love about this board, the sheer depth...

Post by **_Scottie** » Sun May 11, 2008 11:56 pm

Coggins,

One question I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer to is, when did the commandment of plural marriage change between Joseph Smith and BY?

Do you deny that BY had sexual relations with already married women? (hint: Zina Huntington)

If not, they why would you believe that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy any differently than BY did?

Post by **_Mister Scratch** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:01 am

Coggins7 wrote:
That said, it seems to me that the discussion has shifted away from this towards the question of whether or not Joseph Smith had sex with his plural wives. Once again, I believe the answer is 'Yes, absolutely.'

Very well. What is the evidence for this claim, and what degree of certainty do you ascribe to it and why?

I ascribe a slightly-more-than-moderate amount of certainty, mainly because the the counterargument sucks. Honestly, what is the likelihood that Joseph Smith totally avoided sex with all these women? It just doesn't make any sense that he would marry these plural wives without ever bedding them.

What, pray tell, is the "contra" evidence? (Other than the "no kids" theory?)

Post by **_Yong Xi** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:05 am

Even proof of Joseph Smith fathering children would not be satisfactory evidence of sexual relations. Didn't they have turkey basters back then?

Post by **_the road to hana** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:07 am

Coggins7 wrote:
It sounds to me like an earlier version of "All you need is love," or "I'd like to buy the world a Coke."

That's what you have to love about this board, the sheer depth...

What do you think it means? That the universe itself could not have come into being without marriage pre-existing it? Or that the existence of the universe is dependent on marriage being a part of it? Or that marriage in the broader sense gives a certain something to the quality of life as people in the time the Gospel of Philip was written would understand?

Post by **_the road to hana** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:09 am

Coggins7 wrote:
That said, it seems to me that the discussion has shifted away from this towards the question of whether or not Joseph Smith had sex with his plural wives. Once again, I believe the answer is 'Yes, absolutely.'

Very well. What is the evidence for this claim, and what degree of certainty do you ascribe to it and why?

I think the evidence is in the command to marry, be fruitful and multiply. Else what is the purpose of having marriage, whether monogamous or plural? Further evidence is in the fact that these women are regarded as "wives," rather than "wards," or "adopted."

Still further evidence would come from the fact that Emma Smith would not be anticipated or likely to have difficulty with the concept were sexual relations not involved. They would not then truly be "plural wives."

Post by **_Scottie** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:10 am

Yong Xi wrote:Even proof of Joseph Smith fathering children would not be satisfactory evidence of sexual relations. Didn't they have turkey basters back then?

Joseph Smith not fathering children is the stupidest apologetic reasoning I can imagine!!

I don't know why they think that every sexual encounter produces a child.

1. I'm sure Joseph Smith knew how babies were made. Pulling out works pretty well (although not 100%).
2. There are accounts of Joseph Smith having a personal physician that aborted children suspected to be Joseph Smith's.

Post by **_Coggins7** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:10 am

Do you deny that BY had sexual relations with already married women? (hint: Zina Huntington)

I don't know much about that Scotty, so educate me. If you make a claim that BY had sex with a woman already married, I would expect there to be reliable, corroborated documentary evidence of such a relationship that could be checked for its historical accuracy. Where could I find such documentation?

Post by **_the road to hana** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:11 am

Coggins7 wrote:
Do you deny that BY had sexual relations with already married women? (hint: Zina Huntington)

I don't know much about that Scotty, so educate me. If you make a claim that BY had sex with a woman already married, I would expect there to be reliable, corroborated documentary evidence of such a relationship that could be checked for its historical accuracy. Where could I find such documentation?

Did he marry her? If he didn't want to have her as a wife, then why marry her?

Post by **_beastie** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:12 am

Once more:

When Angus Cannon, a Salt Lake City stake president, visited Joseph Smith III in 1905, the RLDS president asked rhetorically if these women were his father's wives, then "how was it that there was no issue from them." Cannon replied:
All I knew was that which Lucy Walker herself contends. They were so nervous and lived in such constant fear that they could not conceive. He made light of my reply. He said, "I am informed that Eliza Snow was a virgin at the time of her death." I in turn said, "Brother Heber C. Kimball, I am informed, asked her the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith and afterwards to Brigham Young, when she replied in a private gathering, 'I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that.'"
Cannon then mentioned that Sylvia Sessions Lyon, a plural wife of Smith, had had a child by him, Josephine Lyon Fisher. Josephine left an affidavit stating that her mother, Sylvia, when on her deathbed, told her that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith. In addition, posterity (I.e., sexuality) was an important theological element in Smith's Abrahamic-promise justification for polygamy.

see above link from in sacred loneliness