Brother Crockett vs...?

[_Scottie]

Do you deny that BY had sexual relations with already married women? (hint: Zina Huntington)

I don't know much about that Scotty, so educate me. If you make a claim that BY had sex with a woman already married, I would expect there to be reliable, corroborated documentary evidence of such a relationship that could be checked for its historical accuracy. Where could I find such documentation?

Wellll...the fact familysearch shows that she was polygamously married to Henry Jacobs, Joseph Smith and BY, and bore BY child. Is that good enough for you?

[_Coggins7]

I think the evidence is in the command to marry, be fruitful and multiply. Else what is the purpose of having marriage, whether monogamous or plural? Further evidence is in the fact that these women are regarded as "wives," rather than "wards," or "adopted."

Nice dance hana, but no dice. The concept of "spiritual" marriage, as applied to many of the woman to whom Joseph was sealed, implicates a true personal relatinship only in eternity. It has no necessary implication (and was not understood at the time to imply), normative earthly marital relations. I am not here speaking of the unmarried woman Joseph married, but only the case of sealings to already civilly married woman.

In other words, your "evidence" is no more than your own subjective benefit of the doubt given to your own position, and you have little substantive understanding of LDS doctrine, not only in this area, but probably in many other areas as well.

Still further evidence would come from the fact that Emma Smith would not be anticipated or likely to have difficulty with the concept were sexual relations not involved. They would not then truly be "plural wives."

In other words, not a shred of historical, documentary evidence from reliable historical sources showing that these purported polyandrous relationships (to the degree they were even relationships that went beyond the sealing event) ever involved sex.

Thanks, I needed that...

[_Scottie]

In other words, not a shred of historical, documentary evidence from reliable historical sources showing that these purported polyandrous relationships (to the degree they were even relationships that went beyond the sealing event) ever involved sex.

Oh good grief, Lauren!!

The fact that they were MARRIED is a "shred" of evidence, if not a landslide.

[Guest]

I think the evidence is in the command to marry, be fruitful and multiply. Else what is the purpose of having marriage, whether monogamous or plural? Further evidence is in the fact that these women are regarded as "wives," rather than "wards," or "adopted."

Nice dance hana, but no dice. The concept of "spiritual" marriage, as applied to many of the woman to whom Joseph was sealed, implicates a true personal relatinship only in eternity. It has no necessary implication (and was not understood at the time to imply), normative earthly marital relations. I am not here speaking of the unmarried woman Joseph married, but only the case of sealings to already civilly married woman.

Again, even if you are talking about these women being Joseph's wives in "the normative sense" only in the eternities, the fact that some were already married to other men is problematic.

In other words, your "evidence" is no more than your own subjective benefit of the doubt given to your own position, and you have little substantive understanding of LDS doctrine, not only in this area, but probably in many other areas as well.

It would certainly be convenient for your argument if that were the case. It appears to me, however, that you are the one who is both theologically and historically out of water here.

Still further evidence would come from the fact that Emma Smith would not be anticipated or likely to have difficulty with the concept were sexual relations not involved. They would not then truly be "plural wives."

In other words, not a shred of historical, documentary evidence from reliable historical sources showing that these purported polyandrous relationships (to the degree they were even relationships that went beyond the sealing event) ever involved sex.

Thanks, I needed that...

What evidence is there in childless marriages that anyone consummates them? Do people witness their most private moments?

You still can't answer the reason for the commandment to marry, if not for a man and a woman to cleave and be "one flesh," whether now or in the eternities, and how this relates to a man marrying wives who are already married to other men.

[_beastie]

So, I'm left wondering why a freakin' affidavit isn't good enough.

Whether or not Josephine was Joseph Smith' daughter, we don't know, and may never know. But the fact that her mother believed that she was Joseph Smith' daughter is conclusive evidence that Joseph Smith had sex with Mary Rollins, who was already married to Adam Lightner, and remained married to him.

[_Yong Xi]

Can a statistical case be made for Joseph Smith fathering few or no children with his polygamous wives? Consider the following:

Brigham Young had 55 wives but "only" 56 children.
Brigham Young was married to his wives in total years far exceeding Joseph Smith.
Brigham Young established households for his wives.
BY didn't have to work on the sly.
It is estimated that there is only a 3-5% chance of pregnancy per sexual encounter.
12% of women are infertile.
Joseph Smith did not establish households.
Many of the women Joseph Smith married were in the later years of his life.
Joseph Smith denied practicing polygamy, therefore he had to sneak. This likely cut down the frequency of trysts.
Emma was likely watching him.
He was the most famous man in town. He had to take risks. I don't think he sneaked out each night.
And yes, he was busy with other stuff as well. Like real estate sales, mayor, commanding an army, running for president, translating papyrus, getting drunk, etc.


I am sure there are other things that would have limited his capability. Perhaps, he merely wanted to conquer each woman and then have sex more often with his favorite. Who knows? But the idea that BY and others had polygamous sex but not Joseph Smith is just silly. Do you really think Joseph Smith permitted other leaders to have sex but refrained himself?

[_Scottie]

So, I'm left wondering why a freakin' affidavit isn't good enough.

Whether or not Josephine was Joseph Smith' daughter, we don't know, and may never know. But the fact that her mother believed that she was Joseph Smith' daughter is conclusive evidence that Joseph Smith had sex with Mary Rollins, who was already married to Adam Lightner, and remained married to him.

Well, that just destroys Coggins argument, so obviously it's no good... Duh.

I notice a pattern here of ignoring certain arguments when he has no answer for them.

[_Jason Bourne]

In all likelihood, in my opinion, Joseph Smith had sex with his plural wives, including Helen Mar.

Can you provide the likely evidence for this please?

[_rcrocket]

Whether or not Josephine was Joseph Smith' daughter, we don't know, and may never know. But the fact that her mother believed that she was Joseph Smith' daughter is conclusive evidence that Joseph Smith had sex with Mary Rollins, who was already married to Adam Lightner, and remained married to him.

The modern historical method would never use the term "conclusive evidence" as you have. There is rebuttable evidence for the proposition. Few facts are conclusively established, especially and particularly claims of paternity. The reason for that is that a child (absent modern scientific method) could base her testimony only upon hearsay, and the hearsay would be most suspect in this case as it attempts to tie one person to another very famous person.

[_rcrocket]

In all likelihood, in my opinion, Joseph Smith had sex with his plural wives, including Helen Mar.

Can you provide the likely evidence for this please?

The problem with the formulation of this question is that it involves "plural wives" when each story is very different. For instance, there is quite a bit of debate as to whether Joseph was ever married to Lucinda Morgan.

Have Scratch pick one wife and I'll go from there.