Brother Crockett vs...?

[Dr. Sunstoned]

Scotty, you surprise me. I'll put this down to a sloppiness on your part to do the homework, while hewing to an animus agians the Church taht is not primarily rational in nature.

Your post, inadvertently or no, makes it appear as if Zina was married to Joseph Smith, Henry Jacobs, and BY at the same time. Let's be clear here: Zina was courting Joseph Smith when he first approached her and asked her to be his plural wife. She declined at that time and married Jacobs. Later, Joseph told her that God intended that she be his "Celestial wife", as Jacobs made known to him in a letter. Joseph made no mention of an earthly household or cohabitation.



They were, in fact, later sealed, with the knowledge of Jacobs, who said:

whatever the Prophet did was right, without making the wisdom of God’s authorities bend to the reasoning of any man.”

Zina herself remarked:

I searched the scripture & buy [by] humble prayer to my Heavenly Father I obtained a testimony for myself that God had required that order to be established in this church, I mad[e] a greater sacrifise than to give my life for I never anticipated a gain [again] to be looked uppon as an honerable woman by those I dearly loved [but] could I compremise conience lay aside the sure testimony of the spiret of God for the Glory of this world…

And:

When I heard that God had revealed the law of celestial marriag...I obtained a testimony for myself that God had required that order to be established in this church...I made a greater sacrifise than to give my life for I never anticipated again to be looked upon as an honerable woman by those I dearly loved..It was something too sacred to be talked about; it was more to me than life or death. I never breathed it for years”.

Zina then married BY after Joseph's death (which would therefore be for time only).

[_Jason Bourne]

That said, it seems to me that the discussion has shifted away from this towards the question of whether or not Joseph Smith had sex with his plural wives. Once again, I believe the answer is 'Yes, absolutely.'

Very well. What is the evidence for this claim, and what degree of certainty do you ascribe to it and why?

I ascribe a slightly-more-than-moderate amount of certainty, mainly because the the counterargument sucks. Honestly, what is the likelihood that Joseph Smith totally avoided sex with all these women? It just doesn't make any sense that he would marry these plural wives without ever bedding them.

What, pray tell, is the "contra" evidence? (Other than the "no kids" theory?)

It seems fairly certain that many of JSs marriages were consummated. I certainly see evidence from some of the comments by these wive's. It is not clear on the polyandrous wives's and since they were told to remains with their current husbands it seems that these were more marriages or sealing for the here after. Helen Mar is a special case. The only thing you have to go in there is supposition. You figure that because he consummated his marriages to other women he must have with Helen Mar as well. You may be correct but you have nothing but conjecture at all. So to say it is likely is far reaching. I could say it is likely he did not which is what I think. But I am no more certain than you.

[_Coggins7]

The modern historical method would never use the term "conclusive evidence" as you have. There is rebuttable evidence for the proposition. Few facts are conclusively established, especially and particularly claims of paternity. The reason for that is that a child (absent modern scientific method) could base her testimony only upon hearsay, and the hearsay would be most suspect in this case as it attempt to tie one person to another very famous person.

Indeed, there are other plausible reasons why she might have considered Joseph to be her father, none of them factual and none of them necessarily impugning her motivations.

[_Jason Bourne]

Do you deny that BY had sexual relations with already married women? (hint: Zina Huntington)

I don't know much about that Scotty, so educate me. If you make a claim that BY had sex with a woman already married, I would expect there to be reliable, corroborated documentary evidence of such a relationship that could be checked for its historical accuracy. Where could I find such documentation?

Read Mormon Enigma and/or Mormon Polygamy. The sad tale of Zina Daintha Hunington Jacob Smith Young can be found in both of those books.

[Dr. Sunstoned]

It seems fairly certain that many of JSs marriages were consummated. I certainly see evidence from some of the comments by these wive's. It is not clear on the polyandrous wives's and since they were told to remains with their current husbands it seems that these were more marriages or sealing for the here after. Helen Mar is a special case. The only thing you have to go in there is supposition. You figure that because he consummated his marriages to other women he must have with Helen Mar as well. You may be correct but you have nothing but conjecture at all. So to say it is likely is far reaching. I could say it is likely he did not which is what I think. But I am no more certain than you.

This has been my point all along, and as I accept (with difficulty, but accept as one of the "hard doctrines") the concept of plural marriage as controlled and ordained by the Priesthood, I have no problem with that. If Joseph could be shown to have had sex with his polyandrous wives, a problem would present itself, which is why I began this thread, not to debate his plural wives, but in particular, his polyandrous ones.

As of yet, I have seen no reliable, documentary historical evidence in play here regarding these and the sexual issue.

[_the road to hana]

In all likelihood, in my opinion, Joseph Smith had sex with his plural wives, including Helen Mar.

Can you provide the likely evidence for this please?

The problem with the formulation of this question is that it involves "plural wives" when each story is very different. For instance, there is quite a bit of debate as to whether Joseph was ever married to Lucinda Morgan.

Have Scratch pick one wife and I'll go from there.

The question is, which of those women do the LDS Church regard as Joseph's "wives," either in this life or in the eternities? What do LDS records show regarding which of those women are sealed to whom, whether or not they are already sealed to or married to other men?

[_Scottie]

Scotty, you surprise me. I'll put this down to a sloppiness on your part to do the homework, while hewing to an animus agians the Church taht is not primarily rational in nature.

Your post, inadvertently or no, makes it appear as if Zina was married to Joseph Smith, Henry Jacobs, and BY at the same time. Let's be clear here: Zina was courting Joseph Smith when he first approached her and asked her to be his plural wife. She declined at that time and married Jacobs. Later, Joseph told her that God intended that she be his "Celestial wife", as Jacobs made known to him in a letter. Joseph made no mention of an earthly household or cohabitation.



They were, in fact, later sealed, with the knowledge of Jacobs, who said:

whatever the Prophet did was right, without making the wisdom of God’s authorities bend to the reasoning of any man.”

Zina herself remarked:

I searched the scripture & buy [by] humble prayer to my Heavenly Father I obtained a testimony for myself that God had required that order to be established in this church, I mad[e] a greater sacrifise than to give my life for I never anticipated a gain [again] to be looked uppon as an honerable woman by those I dearly loved [but] could I compremise conience lay aside the sure testimony of the spiret of God for the Glory of this world…

And:

When I heard that God had revealed the law of celestial marriag...I obtained a testimony for myself that God had required that order to be established in this church...I made a greater sacrifise than to give my life for I never anticipated again to be looked upon as an honerable woman by those I dearly loved..It was something too sacred to be talked about; it was more to me than life or death. I never breathed it for years”.

Zina then married BY after Joseph's death (which would therefore be for time only).

And what is your point??

The fact still remains that Zina was married to BY AT THE SAME TIME as she was married to Henry Jacobs, and she bore BY's son. There is no question that she had sexual relations with BY.

Why are you going off on this tangent? Please answer the original question.

Where did the practice of having sexual relations change between Joseph Smith and BY? If there was no change, then why shouldn't we assume that Joseph Smith was practicing polyandry the same way BY did?

[_Coggins7]

Read Mormon Enigma and/or Mormon Polygamy. The sad tale of Zina Daintha Hunington Jacob Smith Young can be found in both of those books.

According to Zina's own documentary writings, she didn't seem to perceive it as the sad tale you would like to make it. See my post above.

[_Jason Bourne]

I think the evidence is in the command to marry, be fruitful and multiply. Else what is the purpose of having marriage, whether monogamous or plural? Further evidence is in the fact that these women are regarded as "wives," rather than "wards," or "adopted."

Nice dance hana, but no dice. The concept of "spiritual" marriage, as applied to many of the woman to whom Joseph was sealed, implicates a true personal relatinship only in eternity. It has no necessary implication (and was not understood at the time to imply), normative earthly marital relations. I am not here speaking of the unmarried woman Joseph married, but only the case of sealings to already civilly married woman.

In other words, your "evidence" is no more than your own subjective benefit of the doubt given to your own position, and you have little substantive understanding of LDS doctrine, not only in this area, but probably in many other areas as well.

Still further evidence would come from the fact that Emma Smith would not be anticipated or likely to have difficulty with the concept were sexual relations not involved. They would not then truly be "plural wives."

In other words, not a shred of historical, documentary evidence from reliable historical sources showing that these purported polyandrous relationships (to the degree they were even relationships that went beyond the sealing event) ever involved sex.

Thanks, I needed that...

Even if it was for eternity only it still seems troubling. Think of Henry Jacobs and his wife Zina. Joseph Smith proposes to her when she was rather young and says that she was chosen for him before the world was. But she was marriad to Henry. She says no. Joseph Smith persists and she is then sealed to Joseph Smith but she does live wioth Henry. So poor Henry loves his wife. He is a devote Mormon. He lives knowing the Zina will be someone else's in Heaven. Then Joseph Smith is killed. And for some strand reason BY is considered the heir of some of JSs wives including Zina. So Zina and Henry go to the Nauvoo temple and Zina is re-sealed to Joseph Smith for eternity with BY as proxy then married to BY for time. And Henry is still her husband too!! Talk about confusing.

Later BY sends Henry on a mission and he learns that Zina had moved in with BY. Henry also around this same time decided to take a plural wife but is not authorized to do so. So he is ex'd or disfellowshipped, I do no recall which. Zina stays with BY and she has a child by him. She may have officially divorced Henry at some point in there but I am not sure and would have to check on this.

[_beastie]

Sheesh. The affidavit stated that her mother told her Joseph Smith was her father.

Now, either Josephine lied, her mother lied, or her mother had sex with Joseph Smith which led her to believe Joseph Smith was her daughter's father.

So one must question what possible motivation Josephine or her mother would have had to tell such a lie.

This is why these debates are pointless. There is no evidence that defenders of the faith will accept in regards to this point. They'll accept that Joseph Smith had sex with his other plural wives, generally, because it's pretty idiotic to do otherwise. But they draw the line at the polyandrous unions, and insist that, for some reason, THOSE marriages were different.

At any rate, it is still possible DNA may shed some light on the question of Josephine's parentage, according to this website. I'm going to provide the entire citation, because it offers other pertinent information.

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/DNA.htm

(Last Updated: November 2007)

Because Joseph Smith practiced polygamy in relative secrecy, the details of children he may have fathered by his plural wives is uncertain. In a 1905 speech at Brigham Young University, Joseph's wife, Mary Elizabeth Rollins explained, "I know he [Joseph] had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I know he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names." ("Remarks", April 14, 1905, BYU Lee Library).

Josephine Lyon, daughter of Sylvia Sessions Lyon, wrote, “Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”.

As with Josephine, these children were most likely borne by women who already had a husband when they married Joseph Smith, and may have been raised using the first husband’s surname. Still, questions remain regarding who these children may have been.

Today, DNA science may be providing answers. One method of doing this is by tracing a portion of the Y Chromosome, which remains essentially unchanged as it passes from father to son. By analyzing the DNA of a male descendant, the paternity of the ancestor can be determined.

Although Y Chromosome testing is extremely useful in cases involving unbroken paternal lineages, it cannot be used to identify alleged daughters, such as Josephine Lyon, that Joseph Smith may have fathered. To understand these cases, complex genetic testing involving autosomal DNA (the DNA found in the remaining chromosomes) is required.

Historians have previously identified eight possible children of Joseph Smith borne by his plural wives. As of November 2007, DNA testing has shown that three of these eight children were not fathered by Joseph Smith. Two other children died as infants and therefore left no posterity. DNA testing is underway or remains a possiblity for the the remaining three. They are listed below, along with the traditionally recognized mother and father:

Josephine Lyon (Birth: February 8, 1844)
Mother: Sylvia Sessions Lyon
Father: Windsor Lyon

Frank Henry Hyde (Birth: January 23, 1845, 1846?)
Mother: Marinda Johnson Hyde
Father: Orson Hyde

John Reed Hancock (Birth: April 19, 1841)
Mother: Clarissa Reed Hancock
Father: Levi Hancock

DIED AS INFANTS::

George Algernon Lightner (Birth: March 22, 1842)
Mother: Mary Rollins Lightner
Father: Adam Lightner

Orson Washington Hyde (Birth: November 9, 1843)
Mother: Marinda Johnson Hyde
Father: Orson Hyde

DNA TESTING COMPLETE:

Moroni Pratt (Birth: December 7, 1844)
Mother: Mary Ann Frost
Father: Parley P. Pratt (confirmed via DNA research - May 2005)

Zebulon Jacobs (Birth: January 2, 1842)
Mother: Zina Huntington Jacobs
Father: Henry Jacobs (confirmed via DNA research – May 2005)

Oliver Buell (Birth: 1838 – 39)
Mother: Presendia Huntington Buell
Father: Norman Buell (confirmed via DNA research – November 2007)

NOTE: Presently, there is only anecdotal evidence that Clarissa Reed Hancock (Mother of John Reed Hancock) was a plural wife of Joseph Smith. DNA testing would shed further light in this regard. The year of Frank Henry Hyde's birth is uncertain. An 1846 birthdate would eliminate him as a possible child of Joseph Smith (See "The Orson Hyde Genealogy", Utah Genealogical Magazine and Historical, April 1913, pg 60 and "ISL", pg 535, fn 41).

At the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation, Dr. Scott R. Woodward and Ugo A. Perego are using DNA techniques to better understand the paternity issues related to possible children of Joseph Smith. This genetic testing was part of several special projects designed to help the general public recognize the value of DNA in family history research.

"Reconstructing The Y-Chromosome of Joseph Smith", a paper detailing their research was presented at the Mormon History Association Conference May 28, 2005 and was also published in the Summer 2005 Journal of Mormon History (Vol 32, No 2). The paper discusses the paternities of Moroni Pratt (Mary Ann Frost) and Zebulon Jacobs (Zina Huntington Jacobs) as well as a claimed descendency through Fanny Alger, and concludes that none of these three were Joseph Smith's children.

Ongoing research includes evaluation of Josephine Lyon (Sylvia Sessions Lyon) autosomal DNA. "Hundreds of DNA samples from male and female descendants of both Josephine Lyon and Joseph Smith have been collected and are being analyzed with the objective of identifying lineage-specific markers..." (Perego, Woodward, Journal of Mormon History, Vol 32, No.2 fn 39). In January 2004, Descendants of Josephine participating in this study indicated the research is "promising" in confirming Josephine as a daughter of Joseph Smith. The researchers are also hoping to study the other possible children of Joseph Smith and welcome the involvement of descendants.