TAL BACHMAN RESPONDS TO PRESIDENT KEYES

[_bcspace]

So you think that he ought here and now to state everything he knows that might discredit Keyes in the eyes of his fellow LDS? Is that what he ought to do?

He ought to put his money where his mouth is instead of sucking his thumb behind his curtain.

[_asbestosman]

I don't lean towards Tal's version of the events, but I still think it would be stupid for Tal to keep pressing it. I really don't care to see Tal embarass himself if he is wrong and I don't care to see President Keyes get hurt if Tal keeps pressing (whether Tal is right or not, it probably hurts President Keyes either way). I don't care if Tal is lying or not. I really don't see any benefit in trying to prove Tal a liar or trying to prove Tal wasn't a liar. I see it like a bunch of puerile high school students egging someone on for a fight wile he keeps talking about how tough he is, but doesn't want to hurt his opponent. What's next, a game of chicken? I mean really, what's the fun in seeing either one (or both) get more hurt than they already are?

[_truth dancer]

Hey Abman,

I mean really, what's the fun in seeing either one (or both) get more hurt than they already are?

Exactly!

Whether Tal read more into Keyes statements then was there, or whether Keys can't admit his doubts and questions, so what?

Neither benefits from continuing this discussion.


~dancer~

[_bcspace]

I don't care if Tal is lying or not. I really don't see any benefit in trying to prove Tal a liar or trying to prove Tal wasn't a liar

I have no interest in that at all. I simply want to see if Tal is intellectually honest. Tal wanted to interview me and though I doubt he wants to now, I am curious to see what kind of person he really is.

[_asbestosman]

I have no interest in that at all. I simply want to see if Tal is intellectually honest. Tal wanted to interview me and though I doubt he wants to now, I am curious to see what kind of person he really is.

Curiosity is fine up to a point although I am not even curious on this one. Even if I were curious, I would think that the price is a bit too steep. I'm not gonna pay $1000 to see a man with 3 arms and I don't want Tal / President Keyes to pay in hurt just so I can find out if Tal is intellectually honest.

[_Chap]

So you think that he ought here and now to state everything he knows that might discredit Keyes in the eyes of his fellow LDS? Is that what he ought to do?

He ought to put his money where his mouth is instead of sucking his thumb behind his curtain.

I take it that means he should tell all now. You will correct me if I am wrong.

[_degaston]

I don't know what Alex is talking about on this thread; my little brother left the church at 15, and he's never commented publicly on me leaving the church that I know of.

Hmmmmm I guess it was just somebody purporting to be your brother.

[_Nightingale]

Here is what the #8 comment says, on the article that alex linked to:

Anonymous said:

I came across this site quite haphazardly looking for something else on Tal Bachman and after reading the postings decided I should add my two cents. My big brother Tal has been a fantastic example of spotless living my entire life. He has been the family authority on words of prophets and church historians for years. He is a near perfect example of fatherhood to his eight children, and a person who is genuine and sincere in everything he does. He is also an intellectual and as such had questions arise during his teaching assignment as Gospel doctrine teacher, he couldn't answer. He studied and prayed over the course of two years with his wife and finally prepared a list of his concerns and took them to his stake president. Imagine their devastation when the stake president candidly said to them "None of us really believe those church history stories exactly, but the church is just the best way to live, it's that simple". I understand that to some people the end justifies the means. If the truth came forth again, that is the point and the details are insignificant. To others, the details are of great importance because they need to understand and rectify the entire story.

All religions require us to put a certain amount of concerns "on the shelf". That is what faith is about. But what if your shelf was so full, it crumbled? What if you honestly prayed and could not get the answers? Instead of assuming this decision had anything to do with being a musician (and it is ignorant to assume such a thing) give him the benefit of the doubt instead of making wisecracks about someone you do not know. Instead of rallying around my brother and his family, he was ostracized by members in the branch where he was serving in the bishopric. He was accused of having affairs and looking for reasons to leave to justify his lifestyle. What lifestyle? A hobby farms with 8 kids and a great wife?

My brother's family still prays, teaches their children Christ's teachings and follows the word of wisdom. Our family aches for this chain of events but also sees the harm in dogmaticism and judgement. His search is the truth. That's all.

22 Oct 2005 @ 11:55 |
_______________


Looks like Tal doesn't think this sounds like his brother. Maybe it's another relative trying to be really anonymous? Sounds like they know Tal well.

I think it is a fine idea not to make unfounded judgements (re someone's career and lifestyle, for instance). I have recently read an article, written while Tal was still Mormon, that comments on Tal's "clean" lifestyle despite being a pop music star (yes, "star" for those who seek to denigrate him on that score). To make light of his musical talent or try and discredit his knowledge and opinions by mocking and smearing him wears thin when there is no substance offered to counter his claims. If there is, that could be the topic, not Tal's personal life.

As for the SP incident, as has been said ad infinitum, it would appear that the hardnose anti-Tals will not be swayed by anything he could explain or add so if that is the only reason he had for speaking more on this topic, he may as well save his breath and typing fingers.

I appreciate those of any side who can see more clearly than to just auto-diss Tal. It gives me hope that there is some chance for rapprochement on some levels at least.

[_Tal Bachman]

Hi Alex

I went back and read that comment. I'd love to say it was my brother, but I am 99.999999% certain it wasn't. BUT, it does sound very much like one of my sisters, who by the way, is still attending church. She hasn't ever mentioned this to me, though.

About Randy Keyes and the apologist demand to continue to press the issue - I have, shall we say, a very low opinion of the esteem of cult or quasi-cult fanatics, Mormon or otherwise, and I certainly see no reason to say or do anything to try to win their approval. I am sorry that MG, or whoever it was, even forced this into a big issue, though I guess it's my own fault for speaking on here about it in as much detail as I did.

The "win/win for the church!" claims of Mental Gymnast strike me as pretty crude; they rely on the belief that further casting doubt on Randy's credibility at the moment will be great, since of primary importance is maintaining ideological purity within Mormonism.

But the church itself can never be pure anyway; it was founded by a desperate, ambitious young man, on patently fraudulent tales of magical stones, homicidal polygamy-enforcing angels, dematerializing books of gold, lost Jewish sailors, and stars called Kolob which act as a light source for our sun. "Spiritual experiences" qua experiences had within Mormonism are as real as any other; but Mormonism's claims and tales are nonsense. So...because "purity" is ultimately kind of meaningless when it comes to Mormonism, I don't see that there is necessarily an unmitigated benefit in further exposing closet agnostics within the ranks of church leaders (how could anyone doubt that, reading Sis. Keyes's impassioned letter?). In this particular case, I see something of a zero-sum game, especially since it turns out that Pres. Keyes is still the SP.

More broadly, I remain uncertain why it should come as a surprise to anyone that there are closet agnostics and skeptics serving in leadership positions in any religion. It's not like the sentiments expressed by Thomas Stuart Ferguson in his private letters are freakish or something; doesn't everyone know people who don't believe as much as others? Doesn't everyone know people who say one thing publicly, but privately believe another? As I mentioned once, I got an email a few years ago from a beloved mission buddy who'd read some of my stuff online. He was serving in a leadership position at the time, and was married with six kids - and freely confessed that he knew it was all a fraud. He stayed in because it was his "heritage", his wife was happy in church, and he just "couldn't leave". Over the past few years, I've gotten quite a few of those. My old bishop, now out of the church, even told me a few years ago that he was a closet doubter for years. There are probably people right now even posting on RFM, The Foyer, etc., serving in leadership positions, who know Mormonism cannot be what it claims. Why should this be a surprise?

So, while Mormon apologists trip over themselves trying to portray me as "bizarre", I think on the matter of Mormonism, overall anyway, I'm quite sensible: I do not think it is what it claims to be. That puts me in the same category as 99% of everyone else on the planet who has ever heard of Mr. Smith's silly, self-aggrandizing stories. It also puts me in the same category of the most proficient researchers into subject areas, like astrophysics, ancient Mesoamerican peoples, and cognitive science, which bear on foundational Mormon claims and Mormon belief.

And had Mormon apologists been born to Muslim parents in Saudi Arabia, Catholic parents in Italy, or secular scientists in England, rather than to Mormon parents in North America, I've no doubt that 99% of them would regard Smith's tales with the exact same skepticism with which I now view them, and with which they unhesitatingly view the tales of L. Ron Hubbard, Rev. Moon, and Marshall Applewhite.

So, the only difference between Mormon apologists and me is that while we employ the same rational faculties in evaluating the truth claims of the world's religions, they suspend, partly or entirely, those faculties when it comes to evaluating the religion of their birth. I understand that, since I used to do the same thing myself; but I'm not sure there's anything "bizarre" about trying to employ one's rational faculties consistently.

I think what's probably a lot more bizarre is otherwise educated, intelligent men, in 2008, continuing to believe in things like Kolobian light borrowing theory, that the Breathing Permit of Hor is only masquerading as an Egyptian funerary text, but is actually a "cryptogram" - decipherable only by one Joseph Smith - relating the story of an Israelite desert nomad named Abraham, and that a malevolent spirit wields some sort of control over our planet's water systems - and attacking or slandering those who doubt such embarrassing nonsense. If that ain't bizarre, I don't know what it is.

I keep getting emails asking me to respond to the personal attacks being launched my way on various blogs and bulletin boards, some of which, I am told, is libelous. But I just can't muster the desire to roll around in the muck with people who most normal people would regard as truly out there. I want peace and fruitful discussion in my life, not to get sucked into delusion-fueling quarrels with people who "know beyond a shadow of a doubt" that there are three two-thousand year old men roaming the earth right now, anonymously plowing fields and changing tires. It's just too nuts. And pointless.

Just my two cents,

Tal

[_solomarineris]

I've obviously said way too much already, so...for now, I think I should just leave things there.

Hey Tal...

You made the honorable choice.

Most dishonorable are the claims that he refuses to back up such as being able to "out" Keyes if he wanted to.

Most dishonorable?
Dig this BCouterspace;
My Bishop told me when I was 24, I was going to hell If I jerked off or failed paying tithing;
Please tell me I'm a liar....
I'd love to hear that from you.