For Gaz..Struggling Believers' Polygamy Discussion cont.

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_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

liz,

This is exactly why I feel that the early prophets were simply wrong on this issue. Polygamy was a tolerated cultural norm of the Old Testament that had no place being reinstituted. Whether this was done intentionally and maliciously, I suppose we won't truly know until the next life. I hope, for Joseph and Brigham's sake, that it truly was a tragic misunderstanding.



How many scriptures would you like me to site to show that polygamy has been practiced from the beginning by righteous and obedient families of the church? God himself had given David all of the wives that he had, as stated by Nathan the prophet.

Simply because monogamous marriage is the norm does not mean that polygamous relationships may not be commanded by the Lord. We frequently mention Abraham, Isacc and Jacob but there were many Kings and Judges of Israel who were righteous and Holy men who practiced polygamy in full righteousness.

Some are asked to practice it, and others are not, depending on what the Lord desires from his people at various times.
Last edited by Steeler [Crawler] on Wed May 14, 2008 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Dancer,

If a woman had a husband die and remarried, do you think she will be with both husbands as well?


She will be with the husband she was sealed to.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Liz,

Since I haven't died yet, I have no idea what, if anything, exists in the hereafter.


Uhm.. yes you do.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

liz3564 wrote:
Roger wrote:There are tested and proven priciples to live by in this mortality that will bring-to-pass-a-fullness-of-life here and now for the wise


I completely agree with this.

Since I haven't died yet, I have no idea what, if anything, exists in the hereafter. (And, frankly, I hope I'm around HERE a lot longer. I'm not just "chomping at the bit" to find out! LOL)

At the same time, I have had people who are dear to me who have passed away. Although I feel that I am fairly well-adjusted, and treasure their memory, I do, sincerely hope, that I am able to spend time with these people again.

RM: You are certainly not alone in that hope/wish. In my case it was often with wanting to erase, and make up for, some ''bad''. However, after moving beyond folk lore and the sentimental, I realized the responsibility of monitoring my actions by the moment.

With the question IF in mind, as you suggest, and i agree, it seemed preferable to assume there will not be another shore on which others are awaiting my arrival. My point being, enjoy "these people" NOW, and "treasure their memory" as if there is no other time and place beyond mortality. Other than in the tales and mythologies there is no after life as "fairly well-adjusted" folks have been brought up to believe...


And, whether real or imagined, when I have had tough circumstances in my life, I have felt their presence during these key moments. RM: Again, you are not alone. It is most comforting to have had such folks in one's life. That of course is a matter of mind and might reinforce the necessity of creating, and having positive/loving relationships throughout one's life... Creating them by the moment...

Since I am still very tied to the LDS faith through family, yes, the LDS gospel is my point of reference. However, I suppose my point in all of this is that I think we all need to look at things in a little less "black and white" way when it comes to what will happen in the next life, because none of us will really know with certainty until we get there. ;)


You are absolutely black-and-white right, :-) "...none...really know..." If only so-called-Christians would leave it at that, it is MSCO that humanity would be better able to assume responsibility for their actions and the consequent results there-of. Correcting them as they go, not counting on an imagined next life. Particularly Mormonism is responsible for playing with people's minds, lives and resources in this matter, to no purpose but their Corporate end. As I have come to understand them... Some good programs, and group strokes-for-folks but... Warm regards, Roger
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Gaz...

Do you realize God, in the Book of Mormon, said polygamy was an abomination?

Nowhere does God deny this... he even expands on this by explaining that it breaks the hearts of his daughters.

So, why pray tell do you think God would continue an abomination that breaks the hearts of his daughters for eternity?

(I understand some apologists suggest God can command polygamy when it suits his purposes. While I disagree with this interpretation, he doesn't even remotely suggest that it all of a sudden is not an abomination and does not break the hearts of his daughter... more like, it is an abomination and if I command you to engage in the abomination to break the hearts of my daughters so be it).

You keep telling us that your theory is supported in scripture but you have yet to answer ANY questions, or respond to the discussion.

Telling us over and over and over and over that your theory is true does nothing to address the actual topic.

:-)

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Dancer,

Do you realize God, in the Book of Mormon, said polygamy was an abomination?


I answered this question a month ago in some other thread.

Although the law of Moses permitted wives and concubines, the Lord forbade the practice for the house of Joseph in the Promised Land, in the Americas. This was probably in part because of its historic abuses, but also because the basis for such marriages did not exist in Lehi's colony.

The Nephites did not practice slavery, nor did they take female captives and make wives of some of them as had their Israelitish ancestors even in the day of Moses (Num. 31:9, Deut 21:11). This is as opposed to the Lamanites who took women and children as prisoners of war, and on several occasions placed their Nephite captives in virtual servitude (see Mosiah 7:15; 9:12; Alma 58:30). As for the many war-produced widows found at times among the Nephites, the policy was to care for their temporal needs rather than to marry them (see Mosiah 21:10, 17; Moroni 9:16).

Following the death of Nephi (about 540 BC), pride and the "grosser crime" of whoredoms appeared for the first time among the Nephites. Certain men "began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon his son" (Jacob 1:15).

Jacob, Nephi's younger brother, was instructed by the Lord to denounce this evil in its incipiency. Only some Nephites were actually engaged in polygyny; others probably contemplated doing so, while still others remained "pure in heart." So it was a mixed audience - as such groups usually are - that Jacob addressed. The Heart of his message on the subject was as follows:

23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
(Jacob 2:23-28)


Jacob did not proclaim a new doctrine. He told the Nephites: "Ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before" (Jacob 2:34; see also 3:5).

The effort to introduce forbidden practices and to justify them by appealing to scriptural precedents was clearly out of order. It was so then, and it is now. If ancient scripture does not justify disobedience to the counsel of the Lord's living prophet, how can modern historical examples do so? The Lord's people are bound by the commandments given them through the prophet of their day, not those of an earlier time. They are accountable to the prophets they raise their hands to sustain. President Benson has said, "The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet ..... Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence" ("Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet").

Thus Jacob cut to the heart of the matter. What prominent men did and what the Lord approved could be two very different things. Further, no man was justified in deviating from the commandments of the Lord for his time because of the commandments of the Lord to others in another time.

In saying that "whoredoms are an abomination before me" (see Jacob 2:28), the Lord was not equating the principle of plural marriage with whoredoms or declaring that all such marriages - including those of Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob - are abominable in his sight. He was denouncing the abuse of a sacred principle, not the principle itself.

But what is abominable to him is any form of marriage is when the relationship is motivated by lust, or when it robs one's wife of her personhood and reduces her to the level of a thing to be used, mistreated, manipulated, or whimsically abandoned. In that regard, some monogamous marriages among us are abominations.

When wives are neglected, subjected to physical or verbal abuse, to emotional trauma, or to humiliating and degrading conduct by their husbands, the spirit of chastity in them is violated. For chastity is more than a sexual matter, it is also a state of mind, heart, and spirit toward ones whole being. The very soul is at issue.

On the part of husbands, the spirit of chastity implies a conscious commitment to the physical, spiritual, and emotional well-being of their wives and of all women. When a woman is rendered a mere object, a piece of chattel, the spirit of chastity leaves her. She does not feel toward herself as she has the right to feel.

Those who sought to "indilge themselves," as Jacob expressed it, in plural wives were not motivated by a caring love and concern for these women, but rather by pride and lust in their hardened hearts (see Jacob 1:15-16). For was there not a connection between the sin of pride inconsequence of their material wealth and their "grosser crime" (see Jacob 2:22) of whoredoms? Not only could they afford wives and concubines they reasoned, but their very status in society warrented them. Citing the conduct of David and Solomon, who were also wealthy and prominent, was designed to cloak their actions with moral approval.

But the consequences of all such infidelity were vividly described by Jacob: "Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds." (Jacob 2:35). How many hearts die today because of marital infidelity and insensitivity?

Jacobs message seems to have had the desired effect. other than the aberrant case of king Noah, polygyny was apparently stamped out for all time among the Nephites. he tells us "And now I, Jacob, spake many more things unto the people of Nephi, warning them against fornication and lasciviousness, and every kind of sin, telling them the awful consequences of them." (Jacob 3:12).

(excerpts from: Morality and Marriage in the Book of Mormon, Rodney Turner)
Last edited by Steeler [Crawler] on Thu May 15, 2008 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

In regards to the patriarchal order:

Image

"The doctrine or sealing power of Elijah is as follows: - If you have power to seal on earth and in heaven, then we should be wise. The first thing you do, go and seal on earth your sons and daughters unto yourself, and yourself unto your fathers in eternal glory..... I will walk through the gate of heaven and claim what I seal, and those that follow me and my counsel." - Joseph Smith

History of the Church 6, pg. 253
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Gaz, you can justify, rationalize, and twist the scriptures as you wish, the fact is, in your scriptures Christ called polygamy an abomination. He didn't say sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. He did say anything about how it is practiced nor did he discuss intent.

Those who claim it is good to take multiple women are the same as other men who look for ways to justify their own abominations.

In other words... "I am so righteous and do not have any of those bad traits other men have so my desires are good."

Seriously... this is ridiculous.

But what is abominable to him is any form of marriage is when the relationship is motivated by lust, or when it robs one's wife of her personhood and reduces her to the level of a thing to be used, mistreated, manipulated, or whimsically abandoned.


Do you not realize that polygyny does exactly this? There is no way to get around this Gaz.

When wives are neglected, subjected to physical or verbal abuse, to emotional trauma, or to humiliating and degrading conduct by their husbands, the spirit of chastity in them is violated. For chastity is more than a sexual matter, it is also a state of mind, heart, and spirit toward ones whole being. The very soul is at issue.


Yep... polygamy.

On the part of husbands, the spirit of chastity implies a conscious commitment to the physical, spiritual, and emotional well-being of their wives and of all women. When a woman is rendered a mere object, a piece of chattel, the spirit of chastity leaves her. She does not feel toward herself as she has the right to feel.


A man screwing lots of women is the opposite of a man committed to his wife. Again, twist this as you wish... it is what it is.

Can you not see that by virtue of the arrangement a woman's physical, sexual, emotional, and intimacy needs are NOT met? Can you not see that a man's role as a caring and loving father virtually disappears when he has fifty children and is going from home to home visiting various families or wives?

How would you manage if YOU had to share your wife with ten other men? Do you think your relationship would be fulfilling, loving, and deeply intimate? Do you think the love you have toward your wife would increase and strengthen or would the fact that she was sleeping with, and sharing her time and care with other men detract from your intimacy and connection?

No matter how you slice it Gaz, the reality is, a relationship between a man and a woman is harmed, thwarted, and damaged when a man is sharing his emotional, sexual, and intimate life with other women.

It is an abomination.

Another thing...

Do you think Joseph Smith's practice of taking girls and women was an example of how polygamy is "supposed" to work? You know, sneaking around behind Emma's back, screwing young girls, promising them (and their families) eternal life if they become his, sending men on missions so he can take their wives?

How about BY? Do you think for one minute he cared about his "wives" as anything other than a sexual object, ego boost, and bearer of children?

How about any of the hundreds of LDS men who, in the early days of the church virtually abandoned their "wives" and children, left them near starvation without even so much as a home?

Do you really think LDS men living a polygamous lifestyle cared and provided for their families? (I'm sure some did but many did not).

As much as I find Warren Jeff's teachings disgusting, at least the women and children do seem to be provided with a home and food, unlike many early LDS women and children who were living in extraordinary poverty.

Gaz, you seem to have some sort of fantasy that this harem lifestyle is holy and honorable... in reality it is nothing of the sort.

Rather than keep trying to convince yourself this abominable behavior is something holy, why not step back and really think about it?

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

truth dancer wrote:As much as I find Warren Jeff's teachings disgusting, at least the women and children do seem to be provided with a home and food, unlike many early LDS women and children who were living in extraordinary poverty.


My understanding is that many of the women and children in the UT and AZ compounds are on welfare, so their money isn't coming from within; it's coming from the US taxpayer. And that one of the possible charges was welfare fraud. I think I read that in the Trib.
_Inconceivable
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Who Suffers the Most?

Post by _Inconceivable »

The demonstration of inhumanity and carnal selfishness is also noted by the age ratio of adulterous Mormon men and the young women they gratified themselves with.

At the time of his death, Brigham Young left at least one woman in her 20's a widow.


I must ask you, Gaz (and others):

1) Who would have any desire to persue a serious relationship with a woman sealed for eternity with a dead man?

I, for one, would seek for an eternal companion - not a temporary arrangment.

2) What kind of man would court these widows? Looking at the geneology records, some of these women either never married or were passed from one poligamous man to the other - always the lesser of the first and eternal wives.

3) Did this woman have no greater hope than to find a man that was no more than a custodian for her eternal husband

4) If you were a parent of a 20 year old widow, wouldn't this destroy you emotionally as well?


Essentially, if she remained faithful to him, the dead bastard ruined her life.
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