Crockett/Scratch Debate 2: Church Finances

[_Mister Scratch]

Round 2: Scratch, please state the premise you wish me to prove or disprove regarding church finances.

Why bother? I stated in the other thread that "suppression" of the Church's financial records is a place where we see "suppression" of history. If you want to argue against that, go right ahead.

Just as thought. Afraid to debate the topic you DID choose as your favorite. Afraid to state a premise for me to prove or disprove.

You're weak.

You're a coward.

You have no library or substance of knowledge.

You have only rhetoric, by which you anonymously and maliciously disparage other people's reputations.

God knows who you are, my friend.

If you wish to reconsider, state the exact premise about church finances you wish me to prove or disprove.

Wow! Settle down, Bob! No need to get upset, my old friend. Don't you know that name-calling is a bad debating tactic? Anyways, I *did* offer up a premise:

Does the Church's secrecy concerning finances constitute suppression of history? Y/N?

[_truth dancer]

OK, it is clear the church does indeed "suppress its finances". If there was a debate on this Scratch won.

:-)

Another topic... does the church attempt to keep the CHI unavailable to anyone but its current leaders?

Are past or earlier CHIs available to the general public, women, or men in non-leadership positions of the church?


~dancer~

[_solomarineris]

Round 2: Scratch, please state the premise you wish me to prove or disprove regarding church finances.

Your request debate of this topic is simply beyond reason...shall I say insane.
Right now I am trying to balance my Quick books, I have my bank statement in front of me for reference.
I don't trust anybody, I don't put my faith in my banker nor my vendors.
I want proof, especially if I were to dole out thousands of dollars in the form of tithing.

Looks like your leaders words are good enough for you.
It is your money.

Give me a break. Another anonomyte unwilling to debate.

Dude,
Where is your brain living? In La La Land?
Every morning before I do business, pay bills I open up my bank account to see my balance.
YOUR CHURCH IS PART OF YOUR BUSINESS, YOU ARE THE SHARE-HOLDER.
When was the last time Hinkley acknowledged & consented for disclosure & allocations of Church money?
I am not claiming church is dishonest.
I am basically saying that you guys who pay tithing are treated like Dupes, because you have no say
where your money goes. In my book you are the sheep, willing to be part of the herd.
Nothing wrong with that, it's a matter of choice....mmm faith I guess.

Oh by the way, what are we gonna debate about, hochus pocus?
I don't feel sorry for nor pity you.

[_guy sajer]

Ok, what's the issue to be debated. Whether

A) The LDS Church is non-transparent about finances
B) The LDS Church has no reason (ethical or otherwise) to be financially transparent
C) Something else

A) This is obvious, unless Robert can point to me where I or anyone can full disclosure about LDS finances beyond the very brief and very incomplete accounting done in General Conference. What's to debate here?

B) I think Robert will have a hard time arguing that non-transparency about finances is a good thing in any sense for charitable institutions. LDS Leadership, it seems to me, are counting on members giving them a free pass (much like my FIL who thinks that the Brethren are honest and thus he is not bothered by the lack of transparency) where it comes to this issue. That said, there are sufficient examples of financial malfeasance by LDS authorities at lower levels, who are called by the same God as LDS authorities at higher levels, as well as high level religious figures in other Churches, that there is ample reason to think that financial disclosure is important. Plus, let us now forget, that the Brethren are not the ones actually handling the cash, which is handled by hundreds of lower level functionaries who may not all be Boy Scouts (metaphorically). The argument that the Brethren can be trusted and thus don't need to abide by common financial transparency standards is naïve and foolish.

I wonder, does Robert or other apologists believe that the Brethren, and LDS Church in general, should be held accountable for what it does with the hundreds of millions of dollars in charitable donations they receive?

And if so, how can they be held financially accountable without being financially transparent?

[_Scottie]

And if so, how can they be held financially accountable without being financially transparent?

I think the apologetic answer here is that they are audited. Just because the money is not open to the public doesn't mean it's closed to everyone.

Of course, this just means they aren't doing anything illegal with the money. How they are spending it is still completely unknown.

And the stupid argument that if the church were to open it's finances, the critics would just nit pick them to death is simply idiotic! Of course some critics would do that, but so what??

[_harmony]

And if so, how can they be held financially accountable without being financially transparent?

I think the apologetic answer here is that they are audited. Just because the money is not open to the public doesn't mean it's closed to everyone.

Of course, this just means they aren't doing anything illegal with the money. How they are spending it is still completely unknown.

This is my issue: how they're spending it. Shopping malls? What else?

And the stupid argument that if the church were to open it's finances, the critics would just nit pick them to death is simply idiotic! Of course some critics would do that, but so what??

It's not the critics the church is afraid will pick the finances to death. It's the members that cause that fear.

[_solomarineris]

This is my issue: how they're spending it. Shopping malls? What else?

Stop it, right there....
Would you rather like them spend money one dead peoples salvation?
Let them spend money in downtown. Wether you realize or not, they know by now (Temples)
secret handshakes, passing through the veil does not generate any income.
Salt Lake is Beautiful, Coyotes think they mark their territory.
Sadly it's going to dry up like phoney Lake Powell.
I will spend my last days in Vegas if can I can help it.

[_harmony]

This is my issue: how they're spending it. Shopping malls? What else?

Stop it, right there....
Would you rather like them spend money one dead peoples salvation?

I would rather the church spend the money on living the gospel of Jesus Christ... you know... helping the poor, the widowed, the downtrodden, instead of blowing billions on downtown SLC. Who the hell cares about downtown SLC? If the half million people who live there want a new downtown, let them pay for it!

I will spend my last days in Vegas if can I can help it.

Personally, if I never had to go to Vegas again, I'd be a happy camper. Unfortunately, I'm not that lucky.

[_Droopy]

And the beat goes on. Precisely what I expected, and he who expects nothing will not be disappointed.

A bravo performance for Scratch, who always exceeds expectations...no matter how low they may be.