Mormon forum lights up over California gay change

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Coulda fooled me, what with your two-rectum hole comment, etc.

I pity you, Kevin.


Again proving my point that you are all out of touch with reality. How many of you have actually raised children? You cannot stand to have this kind of discourse among grown adults, discussing the realities of homosexual activity, yet you think children will handle it without the slightest psychological stumble?

THINK people.

How do you propose to teach an adopted child that his parents are two men. TD talks about how children are under pressure for feeling persecuted for being different. Hell, giving a kid two daddy's is only guaranteeing that psychological pitfall. How much more will the kid be ridiculed at school, even if he isn't gay, his parents are!

You see, I don't think any of you here really give a crap about the kids.
Last edited by Guest on Fri May 16, 2008 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

This doesn't address my question, but merely tries to justify it with another. Which tells me the whole idea is nothing more than an attempt to "get back" at religious homes.


No... I'm saying I do not believe children growing up in a home with gay or lesbian parents feel any sort of "psychological torture." I truly do not think it is even remotely a reality. I've never seen it, know of no research, nothing. Do you have any sort of evidence that heterosexual children feel "psychological torture" by having gay or lesbian parents?

It also takes for granted the assumption that people are "born that way" and that all gay kids are told they are "Satanic." Give me a break.


Yes, I do think the vast majority of children are "born that way," Absolutely.

I never said "all" children are told they are Satanic... I do think the in the conservative religious communities it is very common for children to be told their sexual orientation is of Satan. No question about this. You know this Kevin.

More kids suffer from being discriminated against for handicaps than for their sexuality. And today, their homosexuality would be accepted as a cool thing.

You haven't been in a high school lately have you? ;-)

Have you ever spoken to gay or lesbian LDS kids?

You have just got to be kidding if you think these kids aren't suffering.

As I said before, the rise in homosexuality correlates with the way it has been normalized in today's culture, which flies in the face of the claim that kids are just "born that way." Funny how homosexuals are rapidly being "born" into a more homosexual friendly culture. Coincidence? I don't think so. I believe some homosexuals are born that way because I know there are many ways a genes can be defective, and some people are born with both sexual organs. Some people are born that way. But today all I see is a bunch of attention needy kids who want to be accepted.
Kids are experimenting sexually because it is the cool thing to do.


There could be any number of reasons why we see more homosexuality now vs forty years ago. Doesn't change the fact that most people are born with their sexual orientation determined.

Do you think you could change your orientation? If not, what makes you think others can?

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Rollo Tomasi
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Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

dartagnan wrote:
Coulda fooled me, what with your two-rectum hole comment, etc.

I pity you, Kevin.


Again proving my point that you are all out of touch with reality. How man of you have actually raised children? You cannot stand to have this kind of discourse among grown adults, discussing the realities of homosexual activity, yet you think children will handle it without the slightest psychological stumble?

THINK people.

Do heterosexual parents invite their kids in the room to watch how sex is done? Should heterosexual parents explain to their kids why they enjoy anal sex? What is so different about explaining homosexual sex and heterosexual sex? Your argument is absurd.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

dartagnan wrote:Because I was graphic in describing how two gay men would love one another?

I am making the point that this is how it would have to be explained to children when the time comes to explain it to them. If you get offended by it, then that is enough to prove my point that kids would also have a hard time hearing it. We use diagrams to explain heterosexual intercourse, so why would it be any different for homosexual intercourse?

They explained homosexual intercourse to me in health class in the middle of highschool in Utah and they even had picutres. Somehow I survived.

WIll a child be more or less likely to experiment, even if he had not already felt he was "born that way"?

People become products of their environment, and this is even more true for children.

What is worse with homosexuality than heterosexuality such that we should be worried about kids trying it? (I don't want my kids trying it, but my reasons are religious). Health class explained heterosexual intercourse to me as well, but I managed to wait until my wedding night somehow (being shy and LDS probably helped).

Anyhow, I do wonder where my gay friend picked it up. It wasn't from me, his parents, or siblings. If anything, his environment should have made him a heterosexual, but it didn't.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
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_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

How do you propose to teach an adpted child that his parents are two men. TD talks about how children are under pressure for feeling persecuted for being different. Hell, having giving a kid two daddy's is only guaranteeing that psychological pitfall. How much more will the kid be ridiculed at school, even if he isn't gay, his parents are!

You see, I don't think any of you here really give a s*** about the kids.


Kevin, do you think my neighbor children would be better off in an orphanage in Siberia or with their two loving, fabulous parents who happen to be lesbian?

To further clarify my comment... I don't think it easy for children to be gay but while it is difficult at school, the "psychological torture" of which you speak in my opinion, comes from parents and religious leaders who believe a child's sexual orientation is of Satan. This far surpasses any teasing.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_silentkid
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Post by _silentkid »

This is some of the funniest crap I've read in a long time. Genius. Sorry for my irrelevant post...just trying to get to 1000. Oh, my high school best friend's mom is lesbian. He turned out okay. That's all.
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

dartagnan wrote:
"Homophobic" is a cool sounding word, but as an empty label it doesn't have much use. On the other hand, Kevin is arrogant, offensive, and ignorant -- this is a plain description of his tone and content.


Ignorant of what? Nothing has been demonstrated yet. I challenge you to provide an example of anything I have said in this thread that is demonstrably "ignorant."

And I am arrogant of what?

Offensive to whom? how?

Because I was graphic in describing how two gay men would love one another?

I am making the point that this is how it would have to be explained to children when the time comes to explain it to them. If you get offended by it, then that is enough to prove my point that kids would also have a hard time hearing it. We use diagrams to explain heterosexual intercourse, so why would it be any different for homosexual intercourse?

Your Daddy didn't marry a woman because he prefers men. He prefers to stick his penis where a man's excrement naturally comes out. Now tell me this won't have some kind of traumatic impact on a child? WIll a child be more or less likely to experiment, even if he had not already felt he was "born that way"?

People become products of their environment, and this is even more true for children.


I think that this definition works for the current context:

Homophobia is the fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals. It can also mean hatred, hostility, or disapproval of homosexual people, sexual behavior, or cultures, and is generally used to insinuate bigotry. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

No... I'm saying I do not believe children growing up in a home with gay or lesbian parents feel any sort of "psychological torture."

I presented this as a question, not a general fact. Keep that in mind.
I truly do not think it is even remotely a reality.

Because you don't want to.
I've never seen it, know of no research, nothing. Do you have any sort of evidence that heterosexual children feel "psychological torture" by having gay or lesbian parents?

My wife is a child psychologist and she has to deal with kids feeling discriminated against for a wide variety of reasons, some of which deal with the parents. Last night I was watching another "reality show" and I don't know what it was called, but I saw enough of it to realize the mother was a former model and playboy pinup. Even though she was in her 50's, she was always dressing in tight shorts as if she were in her 20's. Her daughter was always embarrassed to be seen in public with her. Now assume she had to deal with two fathers. You don't seem to understand or appreciate the impact these kinds fo things have on children... unless of course they are gay children.
Yes, I do think the vast majority of children are "born that way," Absolutely.

There is no evidence for that. Some are, but not most. Most experiment and most who don't even talk about experimenting sexually.
I never said "all" children are told they are Satanic... I do think the in the conservative religious communities it is very common for children to be told their sexual orientation is of Satan. No question about this. You know this Kevin.

But you know nothing about the details. Do you know how children do things to rebel against parents because of religious beliefs? The fact that my parents hated the Mormons only drove me to investigate it. I think parents that oipenly teach hatred towards homosexuals will naturally encourage a rebellious teenager to experiment with that too. I know for a fact that my uncle married a chinese woman only because my grandfather hated them.
You have just got to be kidding if you think these kids aren't suffering.

Well they aren't in San Francisco or Atlanta or even Orlando. It seems like half of Walt Disney world if Gay. They even have Gay day.
There could be any number of reasons why we see more homosexuality now vs forty years ago.

Yes, and it has everything to do with the power of influencial TV programs. Like Rosey O'Donnell, Ellen Degeneres, Tila Tequila, etc. They become role models.
Doesn't change the fact that most people are born with their sexual orientation determined.

I actually believe most people are. But most of them are heterosexual and a small minority are homosexual. You can just tell which ones are. True homosexuality is not "natural" in any sense other than it is a genetic defect that should be tolerated. People should not be discriminated against for being homosexual anymore than someone with Parkinson's disease should be treated differently. But there are a great number of homosexuals who simply choose this path.

About 12 years ago, to give an example, I had a gay person in Orlando hit on me. He told me that he wasn't a "dominant" gay. I said no, but I was curious about the dominant comment, so I asked him what he was talking about. He said he only wanted to have oral sex with me. That was it. He even said that anal sex and the thought of it, disgusted him. To give or receive, it disgusted him. He just liked giving oral sex, and he said that in his experience, about 1/4 of homosexuals he has met at clubs, fall into this category. They have oral fixations that are better satified with men than women.

He also explained that this is why he didn't appear gay. He didn't walk in a prancy way, or talk with his hands in a limp manner, etc. I was like WOW, I didn't realize any of this. But the more I investigated the subject by talking to other gays,. the more I realized this subset of homosexuality was not something they were born with. It was just something they chose to do as they exposed themselves to that culture.

Anyway, my view is not based in ignorance. It is based on my own exposure to a number of homosexuals I have known in the past.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

dartagnan wrote:How do you propose to teach an adopted child that his parents are two men. TD talks about how children are under pressure for feeling persecuted for being different. Hell, giving a kid two daddy's is only guaranteeing that psychological pitfall. How much more will the kid be ridiculed at school, even if he isn't gay, his parents are!

You see, I don't think any of you here really give a s*** about the kids.

Well, as long as we're worried about kids getting made fun of, let's force kids to be fit (I was ridiculed for being too skinny), keep them from displaying outward emotion (I was bullied for quite some time), keep them from being too smart (I was a nerd which was somewhat negative), make them listen to the same music, make them watch the same shows, and basically do all the cliquey things kids do.

Or maybe we could focus on the actual problem--kids being cruel to each other. Teach kids not to be cruel to each other and to help defend those who are receiving cruel treatment. Might be worth a shot. In fact, being an outsider is probably what drew me to that gay friend of mine (although he was picked on back then for his temper, not his sexual orientation).
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

dartagnan wrote:Well they aren't in San Francisco or Atlanta or even Orlando. It seems like half of Walt Disney world if Gay. They even have Gay day.

So does Lagoon in the middle of Utah. You'd be nuts to think that gays in Utah or around Lagoon don't suffer.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
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