Mormon forum lights up over California gay change

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Kevin,

If you have no problem with homosexuality or anal sex, then it was odd that your very first response dwelt on how disgusting homosexual anal sex is. You have a habit of making obviously negative statements about something (or some group) and then refusing to be held accountable for that same statement.

I said:
by the way, Kevin, we're all dying to hear how your kids reacted when you told them they are the product of your semen coming out of your pee-pee hole and into your wife's vagina. Deeeesgusting.


Kevin’s response:
Don't play dumb beastie. You don't look good with the dunce cap on. It doesn't fit you.
You know damn well there is a huge difference and that explaining one is much easier to explain as it is for the kid to understand.


Your kids aren’t old enough for you to have had “the talk” with yet, are they? I say this because none of it is “easy to explain” or “easy for kids to understand”. When kids first hear about how heterosexual intercourse works, they DO hear “the man puts the place where he pees from in the place where the woman pees from”.

But aside from that, since when do we base our decisions about how to raise children on what is easy to explain and understand?

Now, let’s get to what you claim is your only objection – that gay people should not adopt children due to the fact that it would be “psychological torture”.

Kevin
The only beef I have is when they want to start adopting children. I mean that is taking it beyond the privacy arena. In private quarters I don't care if you want to screw doughnuts and sheep. Two people can do whatever they want with each other sexually, as long as they both consent to it. But what's the purpose of wanting to expose little children to that kind of lifestyle? I cannot imagine growing up with two Fathers and then expecting them to explain the birds and the bees to me. Don't most kids want to grow up and be like their parents? And what if people are born "that way" and an adopted child wasn't born that way? What kind of psychological torture would he or she be going through trying to adapt to a romantic relationship they have never seen in their home?


First, unless the gay couple with the adopted child are living on an island without any access to a larger culture, even with having gay parents, the children are still going to be exposed to mainly heterosexual pair bonding. Our entire culture reflects this. The mass media reflects this. Thinking that the child of gay parents won’t know how to “adapt to a romantic relationships they have never seen in their home” is bizarre, given the facts about our larger culture, to say nothing of the fact that your reasoning should also prohibit single people (divorced or never married) from raising children.

So you can’t imagine having two fathers explaining the birds and the bees. Can you imagine celibate, non-mated people explaining it? Can you imagine frigid people with innumerable sexual hang-ups explaining it? Or is it only gay people you can’t imagine explaining it? Help us out and list all the people you think shouldn’t raise kids because you can’t imagine how they would explain the birds and the bees.

Will children with two daddies or two mommies likely be teased about it sometime? Probably. Children are going to be teased about any difference. Contrary to the fuzzy picture some people have of childhood, some idyllic, care-free period of life, childhood isn’t particularly easy and children are often brutal to one another about ANY difference. Will a child with a parent in a wheelchair be teased about that? Probably. Will a child with a foreign parent be teased about that? Probably. Will a Mormon child in a predominantly EV area be teased about that? Probably.

The hard fact of life is that there are many children who currently are in the care of the state, and will be in the care of the state their entire childhoods. We should applaud any time any decent, caring people are willing to adopt these children, because even a household which is a little different and may lead to teasing or situations that are hard to explain is far, far, far better than state custody.

Besides, gay couples who adopt children have already proven the most important factor in being a good parent, in my opinion: they’ve proven they really, really want a child and have planned for that child. I don’t know the statistics on this, but I’d guess that probably half the children born in this world were not planned, were surprises. Now maybe they’re still wanted, but sometimes not. Maybe their families can still adequately care for them, but sometimes not. I teach children, and being raised in a chaotic family where children are not planned and are not adequately cared for, should be society’s worst nightmare, NOT a gay couple who have carefully planned for and desperately want a child.
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_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

beastie wrote:The hard fact of life is that there are many children who currently are in the care of the state, and will be in the care of the state their entire childhoods. We should applaud any time any decent, caring people are willing to adopt these children, because even a household which is a little different and may lead to teasing or situations that are hard to explain is far, far, far better than state custody.


Indeed yes. The primary problem in considering the adoption of children is that many of them will never, never be adopted, and will spend their childhood in orphanages. Many of these institutions are quite horrible places, although the people who run them no doubt do their best with the inadequate resources they are given.

It is infinitely better for a child, both psychologically and physically, that it should be brought up in a domestic setting with one or two adults who want it to be there, and who are happy to give it their love and attention.

If there was a surplus of adoptive parents in the world (which there certainly is not), I suppose someone might find it relevant to put a case for considering the sexual preference of would-be adopters in deciding who got a child first. But under present circumstances it really is not worth talking about.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

If you have no problem with homosexuality or anal sex, then it was odd that your very first response dwelt on how disgusting homosexual anal sex is.

I never said any kind of sex was disgusting beastie. You did. I was pointing out the difficulty in explaining anal sex and its purpose to children. Normal sex can be explained with a natural purpose: procreation. When kids learn about sex in school, they will then ask how teh heck their two fathers manage to do it and for what purpose. That is where the potential damage can ensue. It isn't a question of whether gay parents are physically abusive or neglectful.
You have a habit of making obviously negative statements about something (or some group) and then refusing to be held accountable for that same statement.

I do not refuse to be held accountable for anything I say. But don't put words in my mouth. Here you are yet again, trying to justify your own miscomprehension of what I have said by literally rewriting my posts.
Your kids aren’t old enough for you to have had “the talk” with yet, are they? I say this because none of it is “easy to explain” or “easy for kids to understand”.

Sex and procreation is a fact of life that all humans will have to learn. Anal sex between men is not something that is necessary for children to understand, unless of course their parents are two men.
When kids first hear about how heterosexual intercourse works, they DO hear “the man puts the place where he pees from in the place where the woman pees from”.

What's your point? There is a natural purpose to this process: procreation. That is generally the context in which children are taught about sexual intercourse. They are not first taught about the sexual pleasure that derives from it, because that would only make them curious at an early age. I can easily see how a child who wasn't "born that way" might engage in anal sex anyway, since that is how daddy1 and daddy2 enjoy sex.

But aside from that, since when do we base our decisions about how to raise children on what is easy to explain and understand?

You're playing dumb again. Why? You are smart enough to know what I am saying here. There is a clear difference.

Now, let’s get to what you claim is your only objection – that gay people should not adopt children due to the fact that it would be “psychological torture”.

To be clear, I never said they shouldn't be allowed to. I said I am wary of the idea.
First, unless the gay couple with the adopted child are living on an island without any access to a larger culture, even with having gay parents, the children are still going to be exposed to mainly heterosexual pair bonding. Our entire culture reflects this. The mass media reflects this. Thinking that the child of gay parents won’t know how to “adapt to a romantic relationships they have never seen in their home” is bizarre, given the facts about our larger culture, to say nothing of the fact that your reasoning should also prohibit single people (divorced or never married) from raising children.

I think you are deflecting this through naiveté.
So you can’t imagine having two fathers explaining the birds and the bees.

Sure I can imagine it. And unlike most here, I can also imagine the negative impact that might have on a child. Saying that's part of life and we shouldn't "base our decisions about how to raise children on what is easy to explain and understand" is just ignoring the fact that gay adoption creates a potential psychological stumbling block for a child. Is it enough to deny parents teh right to adopt? Apparently not. Should it be? I don't know. But I do know prospective parents have been rejected for far less.
Can you imagine celibate, non-mated people explaining it?

Sure, why not? The kid doesn't have to watch teh parents doing it. They just have to understand how and why paired adults would or could.And of course, adopted children will most likely have to learn about how his or her adopted mother was unable to have children of her own. This doesn't present a "problem" though. It provides an explanation as to why they were adopted.
Will children with two daddies or two mommies likely be teased about it sometime? Probably. Children are going to be teased about any difference.

Now you're rationalizing the obvious problem away. The point is this point of difference is not necessary if there are prospective parents who are not gay.
Contrary to the fuzzy picture some people have of childhood, some idyllic, care-free period of life, childhood isn’t particularly easy and children are often brutal to one another about ANY difference.

And it is far more brutal when it involves parents. You seem to be falling back on the "that's life" rationale. Well, all I can say is that you don't seem to be too interested in the psychological development of children. Maybe what's more important is that two gay men can manage to work their way into some sense of normalcy in society at the expense of innocent orphans.
Will a child with a parent in a wheelchair be teased about that? Probably.

No, probably not. At least not by kids older than 8.
Will a child with a foreign parent be teased about that? Probably.

No, probably not. You're rationalizing again.
Besides, gay couples who adopt children have already proven the most important factor in being a good parent, in my opinion: they’ve proven they really, really want a child and have planned for that child. I don’t know the statistics on this, but I’d guess that probably half the children born in this world were not planned, were surprises.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Gay parents are more planned than heterosexual parents? That makes no sense to me. As if Gay couples never act spontaneously.

The sad state of parentless children is the best argument for allowing homosexual adoption. But then again, why stop there? Why are so many potential parents rejected when it is also obvious the kids have a better chance with them than being adopted by the government?
Last edited by Guest on Sat May 17, 2008 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

Image

I defy you to tell me a man who has this cat as his handle doesn't have latent homosexual tendencies.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

LOL
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

Chap wrote:If there was a surplus of adoptive parents in the world (which there certainly is not), I suppose someone might find it relevant to put a case for considering the sexual preference of would-be adopters in deciding who got a child first. But under present circumstances it really is not worth talking about.

My understanding is that there is no shortage of parents who wish to adopt, but what they wish to adopt is newborns. I hear that older adopted children often have behavioral problems and thus we have a shortage of parents willing to do that.
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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

My understanding is that there is no shortage of parents who wish to adopt, but what they wish to adopt is newborns. I hear that older adopted children often have behavioral problems and thus we have a shortage of parents willing to do that.


That is what I have always heard as well. I don't have any hard statistics, but as I understand it, you have to be on a waiting list in order to adopt a newborn. I doubt homosexual parents are adopting orphaned teens.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

okay, a few observations from my extended experience as a parent, wife, and teenaged girl:

1. in all of my discussions about sex (which usually happened at the dinner table, because that's the only place we were all together), not once did I ever get into the how-to's. Neither did my parents. And since my Sweet Pickles' parents never discussed it at all, being the good Mormons that they were, he was pretty clueless about the whole process (minus the biology of course, which we got in Biology, not Sex Ed. We're too old for Sex Ed in the schools, although I have a daughter who teaches it now).

2. Anal sex is not solely a homosexual thing. Obviously anyone who thinks it is, is ... well... conventional. (I am extremely conventional, so that's not a bad thing).

3. Lesbian sex is not anal at all. I realize when we talk about gay marriage, we tend to ignore the female half of that population (not at all surprising, since the female half of the heterosexual population is mostly ignored too), but there would be no problem explaining sexual activity to the children of two lesbians.

4. My children at no time have ever consciously made the connection with how they were created to how they created their own children. It's one of those EWWWW subjects that they consciously refuse to consider. I fail to see why anyone would have to explain the [process to a child too young to take biology.
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

dartagnan wrote:Anal sex between men is not something that is necessary for children to understand, unless of course their parents are two men.

Why? Wouldn't homosexual men be able to explain where babies come from without referencing what they do? Wouldn't they be able to explain to the child that she was once in someone's belly (or rather, uterus) and she got there because of a man's sperm combinging with that woman's egg who then birthed her and gave her up for adoption?

There is a natural purpose to this process: procreation. That is generally the context in which children are taught about sexual intercourse. They are not first taught about the sexual pleasure that derives from it, because that would only make them curious at an early age.

Right (except I'm not sure if curiosity is the reason or merely that it is not age appropriate).
I can easily see how a child who wasn't "born that way" might engage in anal sex anyway, since that is how daddy1 and daddy2 enjoy sex.

So don't tell the child. Just tell him that daddy1 and daddy2 love each other, but that they were unable to have their own children so they adopted. Heterosexual couples run into the same issue, especially if they aren't telling their kids about the sexual pleasure which derives from intercourse.

The point is this point of difference is not necessary if there are prospective parents who are not gay.

And if there aren't? It is my understanding that there is a shortage of parents willing to adopt older children.
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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

harmony wrote:3. Lesbian sex is not anal at all. I realize when we talk about gay marriage, we tend to ignore the female half of that population (not at all surprising, since the female half of the heterosexual population is mostly ignored too), but there would be no problem explaining sexual activity to the children of two lesbians.

Uhh, why would it be no problem? Don't they, go for oral? Anyhow, I don't think kids who are learning about where babies come from ned to know what Lesbian couples are doing.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
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