A Conversation Among the Four Horsemen

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

I wanted to touch on this again after finding out that Varghese offered a reply to the accusations in a letter to the NYT Magazine editor :

Dear Editor:

First the good news: Antony Flew is alive and well (physically and mentally) contrary to what readers might assume from Mark Oppenheimer’s article, “The Turning of an Atheist” (New York Times magazine, November 4, 2007). Second, the bad news (for his former fellow atheists): he has not retracted his change of position on the question of God, this despite three years of efforts of malign his mental capabilities and the motives of any theists affiliated with him.

I would like to answer three questions raised by Mr. Oppenheimer’s article:

Did Tony Flew write There is a God? Well, as the cover specifically states, it is written by Flew with yours truly. Oppenheimer says I “made the book sound like more of a joint effort – slightly more, anyway” implying thereby it was a sorta kinda joint effort but, come now, no one seriously believes this. But, as I had told him, the substantive portions of the book came from a combination of Tony’s published and unpublished writings (and by the way he still does write) as well as extensive correspondence and numerous interviews with him. I would be happy to share these with any investigative journalist. The cute sub-titles and the enchanting anecdotes, I’m afraid, did not originate with Tony although he OKed them. Oppenheimer asks “if it was ethical to publish a book under Flew’s name that cites sources Flew doesn’t know well enough to discuss.” Well, I specifically told Oppenheimer that several of these quotes were taken from my previous book and that There is a God dutifully documents this (“For the most part, these quotations are taken from Roy Abraham Varghese, The Wonder of the World …”, p.218). Moreover, Tony edited, corrected and approved at least ten versions of the manuscript.

It should also be noted that Tony didn’t stumble on to his answers to the question at hand overnight – or with this book. As the article rightly notes, the journey began over twenty years ago. Tony, in fact, was a contributor to a book I co-edited in 1992 (Cosmos, Bios, Theos) in which he explored these issues from the other side of the table – but taking the very same approach that he does here.

Does Tony Flew actually believe in a Creator/Intelligence/God? The article’s lead-in states, “But his change of heart may not be what it seems.” Let me be blunt about this (as I was with Oppenheimer). For three years, assorted skeptics and freethinkers have hounded the poor man trying to get him to recant. Believe me, if there was the slightest indication, the remotest suspicion, that he had retracted his new-found belief in God, it would be plastered all across the worldwide web (and beyond). Instead, Tony has taken it on himself to respond to every attack on his intellectual integrity in contributions to publications ranging from a rationalist journal in New Zealand to the latest issue of Skeptic magazine in the UK. The attacks on him are always highlighted on the Internet – his responses are never to be found unless you happen to get hold of the print editions. Not without reason, he now refers to several of the apostles of reason as “bigots”. A key point missed by the article is that it is not just or even mainly the evidence from science that led Flew to change his mind. The single greatest influence on him was philosophical – specifically the book The Rediscovery of Wisdom by David Conway. It was not a tug of war between, on the one hand Paul Kurtz and Richard Carrier, and on the other, the theist scientists, with the data from science as the rope. The rope was a philosophical one and here Conway, Richard Swinburne, Gerald Schroeder (in his exploration of the philosophical implications of science in The Hidden Face of God), et al were decisive.

Is Tony Flew “all there” mentally? Oppenheimer asks if he is “a senescent scholar” with a “failing” memory. As he himself notes, Tony cheerfully volunteered the fact that he has “nominal aphasia”, the inability to reproduce names. Now, starting at the age of forty, the average human being progressively forgets recent names, events and the like. So nothing out of the ordinary there. Is Tony slower to respond when asked a question than a younger person? No question about that – age certainly leaves a mark with each passing year and he is now eighty-four. But then again there are numerous scholars in their seventies and eighties who have trouble remembering recent names and events. And yet in most such cases, the thinkers concerned have been clear and consistent in their reasoning whether or not we agree with their conclusions. The same holds true for Tony. When he sets pen to paper (as will be seen in the most recent issue of Skeptic), he is as cogent and coherent as you could want (and also as terse as he was in his 1950 article). The only reason why people ask questions about his mental faculties is because he dared to change his mind. But let’s not forget that his new view of the world is one embraced by many of today’s leading philosophers in the Anglo-American world as well as most of the pioneers of modern science. This is the dirty little secret that the “new atheists” and their drum-beaters never talk about. It’s so much easier to shoot the messenger!

Roy Abraham Varghese


It is wise to remember the axiom that there are always two sides to every story.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

Given the two immediately preceding postings (firstly a report of an interview with Flew, followed up by further enquiries by the interviewer, and secondly the letter from Varghese quoted by dartagnan,) I can only say that it is probably a good idea to suspend judgment until we hear directly from Flew himself - and under circumstances where we can be solidly convinced that no-one is ghostwriting for him or otherwise pulling his strings. I'd contact him myself, but I want to stay anonymous here, so that is ruled out.

But while I wait for further evidence, I have to say that the material from the interview with Flew (which contradicts what is said elsewhere to have been his position) carries more weight with me than Varghese's letter, which is more or less what one would expect from him if the position set out in the material I quoted is the case. Still, the question is open.

But in any case - one does not (if one has an operating brain) disbelieve in a deity because Flew told us to c. 1990, nor will one start to believe in one if Flew is shown to have changed his mind in 2008. It is the arguments that count every time, as I am sure Flew would agree, whatever his present position.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Having actually read the book, I am leaning in favor of Varghese's explanation. It is true that throughout the book the author is responding to arguments by citing previously stated responses from formal debates and publications. I thought it was kinda odd at first, but now it all makes sense. He was writing as Flew while using Flew's own comments, literally. I think Varghese was careful not to put words in his mouth on issues that really mattered, and he said Flew edited and approved the manuscript ten times. He also said he would open up his evidences to any investigative journalist who wanted to know. Ultimately, I cannot imagine a scenario where anyone could get away with what he has been accused of and Flew not lift a finger in protest. And if it is true that Flew is about to be published in Skeptic magazine, that this alone undermines the NYT claim that his mind is too far gone.
But in any case - one does not (if one has an operating brain) disbelieve in a deity because Flew told us to c. 1990, nor will one start to believe in one if Flew is shown to have changed his mind in 2008. It is the arguments that count every time, as I am sure Flew would agree, whatever his present position.

You might want to consider reading the book. Flew doesn't tell anyone to believe or disbelieve in God. He simply gives a detailed summary of his long intellectual migration to that position. Flew stated that his position was always the same: to follow wherever the evidence led him. This is beneficial to theists who are often accused on believing in a God on religious faith alone. Flew came to the conclusion that God exists based on philosophical and scientific evidences, not because he is blinded by a particular religious dogma. Heck, he doesn't even believe in a "personal" God it seems. He just believes God explains some of the mysteries that science cannot.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

dartagnan wrote: This is beneficial to theists who are often accused on believing in a God on religious faith alone.


That is not an accusation I have ever made against theists in general, particularly since when I was a theist I would have claimed I had some reason for my belief. The point at issue is whether the reasons are good ones.

But I don't think in any case that the intellectual biography of someone who claims (like Flew) to have based his position on argument and evidence has any relevance to some of the people encountered on this board from an LDS background, who claim quite specifically that the strength of their theistic position is not based on argument and evidence in any normal sense, but comes from ineffable private experience.

[edited once for punctuation]
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

That is not an accusation I have ever made against theists in general, particularly since when I was a theist I would have claimed I had some reason for my belief. The point at issue is whether the reasons are good ones.

In my experience, particularly on this forum, the accusation is that belief in God is not rational. That belief in God is not based in any kind of reasoning whatsoever, and that knowledge only comes by science. Recently, I was ridiculed for saying knowledge can come to an individual via science, philosophy and religion. Many here respond aggressively to this claim, even though many atheist philosophers have admitted the same thing.

But I don't think in any case that the intellectual biography of someone who claims (like Flew) to have based his position on argument and evidence has any relevance to some of the people encountered on this board from an LDS background, who claim quite specifically that the strength of their theistic position is not based on argument and evidence in any normal sense, but comes from ineffable private experience

Fair enough. Though I believe most people are theists for nonreligious reasons. Mormons testify to their particular brand of theism, which entails a personal God and relies on a spritual experience to explain their Mormonism. Flew simply explains his reasons for his theism. He doesn't seem to indiacte a belief in a God who interacts in our world.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
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