Lutherans.

[_the road to hana]

You live in Europe and you have never heard of Martin Luther?

Don't worry. Lots of people live in Utah and have never heard of him, either.

It's like saying, "You live in Canada and you've never heard of Brigham Young?"

[_Chap]

You live in Europe and you have never heard of Martin Luther?

Don't worry. Lots of people live in Utah and have never heard of him, either.

It's like saying, "You live in Canada and you've never heard of Brigham Young?"

Since Martin Luther (1483-1546) was a European, perhaps your analogy may be a bit faulty?

Isn't it a bit more like "You live in the USA and you've never heard of Abraham Lincoln?"

[_the road to hana]

You live in Europe and you have never heard of Martin Luther?

Don't worry. Lots of people live in Utah and have never heard of him, either.

It's like saying, "You live in Canada and you've never heard of Brigham Young?"

Since Martin Luther (1483-1546) was a European, perhaps your analogy may be a bit faulty?

Isn't it a bit more like "You live in the USA and you've never heard of Abraham Lincoln?"

British Isles might technically be part of Europe, but Lutheranism has never been a state religion there.

Utah is part of North America, as is Canada. Scotland is part of Europe, as is Germany.

Brigham Young would be well known in Utah, and better known in the United States than in the rest of North America.

Martin Luther would be well known in Germany, and better known in continental Europe than in (some corners of) the British Isles.

At what point in your schooling did you study Martin Luther? pirate already said she didn't take her A-levels.

[_Chap]

You live in Europe and you have never heard of Martin Luther?

Don't worry. Lots of people live in Utah and have never heard of him, either.

It's like saying, "You live in Canada and you've never heard of Brigham Young?"

Since Martin Luther (1483-1546) was a European, perhaps your analogy may be a bit faulty?

Isn't it a bit more like "You live in the USA and you've never heard of Abraham Lincoln?"

British Isles might technically be part of Europe, but Lutheranism has never been a state religion there.

Utah is part of North America, as is Canada. Scotland is part of Europe, as is Germany.

Brigham Young would be well known in Utah, and better known in the United States than in the rest of North America.

Martin Luther would be well known in Germany, and better known in continental Europe than in (some corners of) the British Isles.

At what point in your schooling did you study Martin Luther? pirate already said she didn't take her A-levels.

Please excuse me for not wanting to get into a detailed discussion of the role of Luther in the history of Western Christendom.

But I think you need to remember that many non-Lutheran people who are either protestants or who know about protestantism recognise Martin Luther as an important figure in the history of the Reformation. Of course there are some parts of Europe in which he would be something of a 'local hero' or villain, and hence be particularly well known. But most people in all parts of Europe who have had a normal education up to the legal school leaving age will have been exposed to some material about him. Of course they may have been texting friends at the time, and hence missed the relevant learning experience.

[_the road to hana]

You live in Europe and you have never heard of Martin Luther?

Don't worry. Lots of people live in Utah and have never heard of him, either.

It's like saying, "You live in Canada and you've never heard of Brigham Young?"

Since Martin Luther (1483-1546) was a European, perhaps your analogy may be a bit faulty?

Isn't it a bit more like "You live in the USA and you've never heard of Abraham Lincoln?"

British Isles might technically be part of Europe, but Lutheranism has never been a state religion there.

Utah is part of North America, as is Canada. Scotland is part of Europe, as is Germany.

Brigham Young would be well known in Utah, and better known in the United States than in the rest of North America.

Martin Luther would be well known in Germany, and better known in continental Europe than in (some corners of) the British Isles.

At what point in your schooling did you study Martin Luther? pirate already said she didn't take her A-levels.

Please excuse me for not wanting to get into a detailed discussion of the role of Luther in the history of Western Christendom.

But I think you need to remember that many non-Lutheran people who are either protestants or who know about protestantism recognise Martin Luther as an important figure in the history of the Reformation. Of course there are some parts of Europe in which he would be something of a 'local hero' or villain, and hence be particularly well known. But most people in all parts of Europe who have had a normal education up to the legal school leaving age will have been exposed to some material about him. Of course they may have been texting friends at the time, and hence missed the relevant learning experience.

I think pirate's been pretty clear about leaving before her A-levels. I didn't study Martin Luther in school until college. Perhaps your experience varied. I grew up in a predominantly Mormon culture and learned state history and even American history prior to graduating from high school, but Martin Luther was not mentioned either in my pre-college schooling or in my home.

Again, perhaps your experience varied.

I suppose the first time I ever heard of Martin Luther was in the LDS Visitors Center in Temple Square in Salt Lake City. It was many years later before I fully understood his role in the Protestant Reformation. We certainly didn't study him in Seminary.

Again, perhaps your experience varied.

I wouldn't be too hard on pirate. Pirate's like a brilliant supercomputer, but highly specialized.

Again, I'd wonder at what point in your own education Martin Luther and his role in the Protestant Reformation was taught to you in any detail.

[_the road to hana]

But I think you need to remember that many non-Lutheran people who are either protestants or who know about protestantism recognise Martin Luther as an important figure in the history of the Reformation.

Last I checked Mormons aren't Protestants, and pirate has already indicated she's LDS. I doubt they're talking about Martin Luther too much at her ward.

I understand your point. I'm not sure you're being realistic in context.

Even people in (the Republic of) Ireland have different foci in learning about religious history than people in (Northern Ireland) England or Scotland do. Comparing all three to continental Europe has its own issues.

[_Imwashingmypirate]

I am grateful to Imwashingmypirate for her detailed posting in answer to my query about 'where she was coming from'.

Incidentally, I never found anything in her written English to suggest a non-native language user. It is what she says, not her the language she uses to say it, that puzzles me. Now we know that she is a university student, and has spent time in the Scottish educational system, which has the reputation of being rather good, possibly better in some respects than the English one.

On that basis, I should like to say two things by way of totally unsolicited advice:

1. Before you think outside the box, it is a good idea to be sure you know where the edges of the box are, and what shape it is. Your references to Lutheranism, and the fact that people were able to play the 'Madonna' joke on you suggest that your intelligence is not supported by an adequate knowledge base outside the subjects you have studied so far. Intelligence is like the digestive system: you have to give it some solid roughage to work on, or its muscles get loose and it produces nothing but ... well, you get the idea. Why don't you start to build a knowledge base about the contemporary world by reading a good popular weekly current affairs magazine like Time or Newsweek? (If you want something more demanding, try the Economist). To fill in the gaps about what has happened to the human race so far, try something like The New Penguin History of the World (Paperback) by J.M. Roberts. You will find a daily dose intriguing and enlightening.

2. If you want to transcend logical thinking, find out first what that kind of thinking can do, and how it can save you from having other people play tricks on your mind - a very necessary skill, I suggest, for anyone who is in contact with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Try reading, for instance, How to Think Straight: An Introduction to Critical Reasoning by Anthony Flew.

If you follow this prescription, I guarantee that after a few months of treatment you will stop feeling gullible. You may even start to feel canny!

In return for all this unsolicited advice, could you tell us how someone like yourself happens to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? Were you born into the church? Or were you converted to it? If the latter, what was your religious experience up to that point? What made you think the church was true?

Of course you are under no obligation to answer any of those questions, or to take any notice of this post at all.

I have never heard of the Madonna thing. I don't know where the box is. Gosh, how do I explain? I certainly am not wiling to publically explain... sorry.

Umm... I study Physics (don't call me a troll, I have been called that before... not fun)... I have so many books where I am living that I want to read and have exams next week and five reports and an essay to write so I am a bit arghh... Also next semester, I am taking Budhism for a free elective, so I want to get a heads up on that in the summer. I will bookmark this page and look these up when I am not arghhhhing.

I hate being so naieve [sp!].

Um, I will answer your questions, but I would answer them without advice, it comes with the territory.

In return for all this unsolicited advice, could you tell us how someone like yourself happens to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? Were you born into the church? Or were you converted to it? If the latter, what was your religious experience up to that point? What made you think the church was true?

Someone like me???

My parents converted when I was 7. My family became inactive, I reactivated in 2005.

When I was young, I think I was a protestant, but we never went to church or anything. I only think that because I remember talking to my brothers and they were saying something about us being protestant and not prostitutes. In School, we said the prayer in the morning for assembly. I don't remeber church as a child, the only thing I remember is being told how to put tithes in an envelope as an 8 year old and my baptism.

Before my baptism, I chose who did it and what sons I had, I chose I am a child of God, only because it was the first song I opened the book at. I didn't know anything about the church. At the interview, the Bishop asked me to point out the prophet in the room... I looked around the room looking for people and I thought, well, my family haven't told me they are a prophet so I said the bishop. I didn't know who or what a prophet was. I never knew why I was gettin baptised, but I did. I didn't go to church the next few weeks, I don't remember my confirmation and was not on the records until november 2007. In 2005, I had gone to visit my dad at Christmas and they told me they couldn't find my record, so they wanted me rebaptised, my mum said no. I asked about it when I came back to England, an ad hoc record was made, it doesn't have my dates on. They said that as I was baptised in 1996, I would have been confirmed on the same day.

It was after my baptism that everyone had became inactive. My mum didn't agree with paying tithes, she believed that they shouldn't have a set percentage. I think the thing was that when my parent's did pay tithes my brothers could go to the temple, but at one point where things were really bad and they really couldn't afford it, my brothers werent allowed to go. So most of my life, I wasn't active, because my dad didn't allow it often, I went with my aunt now and then, but I felt eally uncomfortable because some of the members hung around with people that bullied me at school. In High school I went to Scripture Union, which is a mainstream Christian Bible study group. I never read the Book of Mormon, I read the Bible though and one of the things I would do to zone out at night was read the Bible from the beginning. I never read the D&C or PoGP, they weren't redily available. I had picked it up now and then, but they meant nothing, I didn't feel the need to, I had the Bible and my closeness to God. My religious beliefs pretty much came from my own experiences and idea's about the world (whi is why I sit on the fence).

One of my fondest memories regarding religion is when my dad would go out, we would all gather around the fireplace and have long discussions. We discussed lots of things, mainly religion, budhism, strange things, paranorma. Even our escape plan near the end.

I believed in God. I did not believe in satan or hell until I was more involved with church. It made no sense. I once called God, Satan and felt so bad for that. I never visualised God as a man, until I became more involved in church. To me God was an energy that I could talk to in my head. To me Jesus wasn't a big deal. A cool guy never the less, but not as important as God.

In 2004, we left, things changed completely and I wandered back Old Testament church, it provided the support I needed. It created gazillions of questions. I still have questions, but it was like a backbone that I needed. It got me out of the house and amongst people. I have still never actually read the Book of Abraham or PoGP, I don't even know what is in the PoGP. I have read bits and pieces that church tells me to read, but not actually done it. I studied the Book of Mormon in Seminary and couldn't be bothered ith another year of it.

I lived my life simple and never got involved in anything against the church (basically I did nothing, just wandered) and so the transition was easy.

My beliefs as current are hard to describe or explain but will have a go...

I believe:

All religions are true and false similtaniously.
God is man but not man similtaniously. Or in otherwords, God is everything and everywhere... We being created in the image of God, being created of matter as is everything else in this world, all things are made up of the same stuff.

I believe that whatever people believe is right for them and that basing our beliefs on proof and archeological evidence is unnecesary. People can live their lives believing in anything they like and to them it is real, so very real. It is how they use it that matters. I believe that everything has a good and bad effect and that we just need to be careful to reap the effect we chose and learn from the other. And use negativities to our gain. Like my past, somethings are definetly negative, but I have realised that they don't need to be, that I don't need to let these things pull me down and I can use them to my benefit, I can help others by showing that I understand and can relate.

I believe that we can achieve eternal life, but not byt following one path, but rather by understanding all paths and by knowing that materialism is holding us back, that if we can free our minds from our bodies, when we die, our minds will know how to continue and not be pulled down with the body. I believe people continue to learn and that our energy will be conserved.

I believe that if people believe in a religion and others say it is false or evil, it is irrelative because it is the persons belief that matters and if God were a man, then surely God could not judge a person for being sure of something whether right or wrong. I believe that when I pray to God, I am raying to the same God as everyone else, and that even though we might all have different names or images, God will know and understand because in our minds it is right and if God were called something else, say pizza and I still called pizza God, even though that was not the case, I would not be judged because in my head, I visualise something that will support me and is ultimate. The name is irrelevent, it is the meaning that is important, and only the meaning to us.

I think everything is true. It is hard to explain, but if you picture in your head and organisation that each part o the organisation doesn't make sense singled out and can often seem ludicrous, but all together are one. I see in my head, somewhat faintly, white paper that spans the whole of my viewing point and if I were relaxed and induced in a lucid dream type think I would see it clearer, but this paper has things on it, and those things are everything. The are arranged across the paper and out of the paper and are on different levels. They contradict and don't work, but they still work. It is hard to expain. But this scematic continues to grow.

Wow, I so totally forgot where I was there. LOL.

I do not believe that I am unkowing to a lot of things, I just can't be bothered discussing most things. A friend of mine said today that when I am nor silly and hyper I have a good head on me and previously said that I make good conversation. Most of the time I dissociate and don't want to get involved. i have tried being serious and I think about writing a proper post, but I wan't it to be perfect and I don't have the time or energy, so fall into just typing randomly and impulsively.

I am ramblig, perhaps because I do not wish to write my essay that I am dreading because Hackman's theory on teams makes me laugh. Haha... It gave me chest pains researching him.


Pirate.

[_Imwashingmypirate]

You live in Europe and you have never heard of Martin Luther?

Don't worry. Lots of people live in Utah and have never heard of him, either.

It's like saying, "You live in Canada and you've never heard of Brigham Young?"

Since Martin Luther (1483-1546) was a European, perhaps your analogy may be a bit faulty?

Isn't it a bit more like "You live in the USA and you've never heard of Abraham Lincoln?"

British Isles might technically be part of Europe, but Lutheranism has never been a state religion there.

Utah is part of North America, as is Canada. Scotland is part of Europe, as is Germany.

Brigham Young would be well known in Utah, and better known in the United States than in the rest of North America.

Martin Luther would be well known in Germany, and better known in continental Europe than in (some corners of) the British Isles.

At what point in your schooling did you study Martin Luther? pirate already said she didn't take her A-levels.

I did take A levels. In Physics, biology, Maths, Chemistry and Philosophy, I just did my GCSE's then A levels, so I have more schooling than most people my age. I studied intermediate 1 in religious moral philosophical studies, which is like an AS level.

Um... Ok, to clear things up.

In 2000, I went to secondary school. In 2002 I started Standard Grades, I studied, Biology, Chemistry, History, Maths, English, Art, and French at Standard Grade. And RMPS at Int 1. Then in 2004, I was about to go onto studying Highers, in Chemistry, Biology, Maths, English and Intermediate 2 Physics. Intermediate is between Stansard grade and Highers. One had to have previously studied the subject at standard gradeto do a higher in it, but I hadn't thus I wanted to do Int2.

In 2004, my parents seperated, I had about 6 months out of School because the Scottish system and english system take place at different times. I went to College to do A levels, I wanted to be a Doctor and wouldn't drop Chemistry so I went to a high school that did A levels, I was to late to enrol and was too young. So I did GCSE's in Religious studies (Islam), English, Maths, Science, Art, Drama, Graphics (technology). THEN went on to do A levels. I studied at Alevel, Physics, Maths, Biology, Chemistry and Philosophy.

I am now at University Studying BSC hons in Physics and will be studying a minor in Theology (Budhism and hopefully Biblical Languages).

DOes that make more sense?

[_the road to hana]

I did take A levels. In Physics, biology, math, Chemistry and Philosophy, I just did my GCSE's then A levels, so I have more schooling than most people my age. I studied intermediate 1 in religious moral philosophical studies, which is like an AS level.

Sorry, pirate. I misspoke.

Did you study the Protestant Reformation in school?

Looks like History might have been a gap.

p.s. They're giving you a hard time about the "Madonna" thing, because Madonna is the name of the famous female rock/pop singer, and also a name that means Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ. So they're teasing you.

[_Imwashingmypirate]

I did take A levels. In Physics, biology, math, Chemistry and Philosophy, I just did my GCSE's then A levels, so I have more schooling than most people my age. I studied intermediate 1 in religious moral philosophical studies, which is like an AS level.

Sorry, pirate. I misspoke.

Did you study the Protestant Reformation in school?

No, I don't even know what a protestant is.

I studies in Religous studies, Islam and in RMPS, abortion, capital punishment, ethics and morals. In Philosophy, I studied ethics again, Bentham, Mill, Kant, Plato, Satre (utilitarianism), Socrates and some greek mythology stuff.

So really the only religions I have studied in School are Islam and Christianity, but have studied on my own a little about Sikhism, Hinduism and tried to read about on tao ism. But most things I know is discussions with my mum, who studied religion very deep that some forces or something made things stop them or something.