Thank you Mercury!

[_Droopy]

Because that's not part of the template, it doesn't fit the agenda, and it would expose Merc as the dismal poseur he actually seems to be.

Could any of you exmos possibly come up, at some point, with a criticism of the Church that can't be disposed of essentially in the manner one blows one's nose and then effortlessly drops the Kleenex into the trash?

The boredom created by the dearth of real, substantive argument here is becoming a major theme of its own in this forum.

[_Mercury]

That quote does not exist in page 53 of Van Wagoner's book on Polygamy.

That quote exists on page 294 of Van Wagoner's book on Sidney Rigdon, and it is a third-hand account from a Catherine Lewis. Lewis joined the church and then apostatized, writing a famous expose of the temple endowment ceremony.

I could write a book on Van Wagoner's excesses.

Helen wrote her own book on the subject, and never mentioned anything like this.

But, go on using the quote. It makes you look informed.

The thing is Bob, I frankly cannot trust you.

Anyone else want to verify this besides the assclown Crockett?

Why can't you just read the book you quoted from and confirm the absence of the quote yourself?

Provide a link or send me the book or a location where I may purchase it.

[_TrashcanMan79]

Provide a link or send me the book or a location where I may purchase it.

If you're asking for the book and/or a link, you now have me curious as to where you got the quote in the first place....

[_Mercury]

Provide a link or send me the book or a location where I may purchase it.

If you're asking for the book and/or a link, you now have me curious as to where you got the quote in the first place....

Good point. I was browsing a document linked off of something from RFM. I am all for accuracy in my conduct, and if the citation is not valid, then someone please provide the document cited or one identical to it in another work with proper context.

[_rcrocket]

That's shameful and dishonest conduct when it comes to citing from sources. You, Rollo, and Scratch are the same, pretending to cite from sources you don't have.

[_Mercury]

Because that's not part of the template, it doesn't fit the agenda, and it would expose Merc as the dismal poseur he actually seems to be.

Could any of you exmos possibly come up, at some point, with a criticism of the Church that can't be disposed of essentially in the manner one blows one's nose and then effortlessly drops the Kleenex into the trash?

The boredom created by the dearth of real, substantive argument here is becoming a major theme of its own in this forum.

the quote itself does not disarm the church. It disarms Joe. Al your hand waving and douchery adds up to you always looking for the clearly laid out path cogs. Its a lot more difficult to do that so I know you are not up to the task. you have been absolutely trounced on a predictable basis here in this forum yet you assert as if you are the victor. Oh well, fool on the hill. You will always be able to satisfy your own ego through delusions.

[_beastie]

I own Mormon Polygamy. On page 53, it reads:

There is evidence to suggest that on at least one other occasion Smith convinced one of his would-be young wives to accept polygamy by persuading her that it was a “spiritual order and not a temporal one.” Helen Mar Kimball, fifteen year-old daughter of Apostle Heber C. Kimball, reported that Smith told her: “If you will take this step, it will insure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.” “This promise was so great,” Helen felt, “that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward” (Whitney, “Retrospection”). “I thought through this life my time will be my own,” she wrote in a letter to be opened after her death, “the step I now am taking’s for eternity alone.” (ibid). But she reportedly had misinterpreted Smith’s intent. She confided to a close friend in Nauvoo: “I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I know it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it.” (Lewis, 1848, 19).

My edition was printed in 1989. What year was your edition printed, Bob?


Now one can debate whether or not Lewis was a reliable source. However, the only factor that changes is whether or not Helen would, knowing what she knew later, agree to the marriage. By her own words she verifies that she married Smith thinking that it would be for eternity ONLY, and "offered herself" as a "purchase" for so glorious a reward.

Here is Helen's poem, also reproduced in Compton. If a fuller version of the poem exists, I am not aware of it.

I thought through this life my time will be my own
The step I now am taking’s for eternity alone,
No one need be the wiser, through time I shall be free,
And as the past hath been the future still will be.
To my guileless heart all free from worldly care
And full of blissful hopes and youthful visions rare
The world seamed bright the thret’ning clouds were kept
From sight and all looked fair...

...but pitying angels wept.
They saw my youthful friends grow shy and cold.
And poisonous darts from sland’rous tongues were hurled,
Untutor’d heart in thy gen’rous sacrafise,
Thou dids’t not weigh the cost nor know the bitter price;
Thy happy dreams all o’er thou’st doom’d also to be
Bar’d out from social scenes by this thy destiny,
And o’er thy sad’nd mem’ries of sweet departed joys
Thy sicken’d heart will brood and imagine future woes,
And like a fetter’d bird with wild and longing heart,
Thou’lt dayly pine for freedom and murmor at thy lot;

But could’st thou see the future & view that glorious crown,
Awaiting you in Heaven you would not weep nor mourn.
Pure and exalted was thy father’s aim, he saw
A glory in obeying this high celestial law,
For to thousands who’ve died without the light
I will bring eternal joy & make thy crown more bright.
I’d been taught to reveire the Prophet of God
And receive every word as the word of the Lord,
But had this not come through my dear father’s mouth,
I should ne’r have received it as God’s sacred truth.

Helen Mar Kimball

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-He ... imball.htm

[_truth dancer]

I have both the 1986 and the 1989 editions of Mormon Polygamy...

The quote is not in the 1986 edition on page 53, it IS in the 1989 edition on page 53.

~dancer~

[_beastie]

Thanks, TD, for clearing that up.

I suggest bob be a bit more cautious in his zeal to accuse others of dishonesty.

[_truth dancer]

I suggest bob be a bit more cautious in his zeal to accuse others of dishonesty.

Ya think?

LOL!


~dancer~