Thank you Mercury!

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_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

It's interesting how the crickets tend to chirp in Bob's direction when he is proven wrong.

;)
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

beastie wrote:I own Mormon Polygamy. On page 53, it reads:

There is evidence to suggest that on at least one other occasion Smith convinced one of his would-be young wives to accept polygamy by persuading her that it was a “spiritual order and not a temporal one.” Helen Mar Kimball, fifteen year-old daughter of Apostle Heber C. Kimball, reported that Smith told her: “If you will take this step, it will insure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.” “This promise was so great,” Helen felt, “that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward” (Whitney, “Retrospection”). “I thought through this life my time will be my own,” she wrote in a letter to be opened after her death, “the step I now am taking’s for eternity alone.” (ibid). But she reportedly had misinterpreted Smith’s intent. She confided to a close friend in Nauvoo: “I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I know it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it.” (Lewis, 1848, 19).


My edition was printed in 1989. What year was your edition printed, Bob?


Now one can debate whether or not Lewis was a reliable source. However, the only factor that changes is whether or not Helen would, knowing what she knew later, agree to the marriage. By her own words she verifies that she married Smith thinking that it would be for eternity ONLY, and "offered herself" as a "purchase" for so glorious a reward.

Here is Helen's poem, also reproduced in Compton. If a fuller version of the poem exists, I am not aware of it.

I thought through this life my time will be my own
The step I now am taking’s for eternity alone,
No one need be the wiser, through time I shall be free,
And as the past hath been the future still will be.
To my guileless heart all free from worldly care
And full of blissful hopes and youthful visions rare
The world seamed bright the thret’ning clouds were kept
From sight and all looked fair...

...but pitying angels wept.
They saw my youthful friends grow shy and cold.
And poisonous darts from sland’rous tongues were hurled,
Untutor’d heart in thy gen’rous sacrafise,
Thou dids’t not weigh the cost nor know the bitter price;
Thy happy dreams all o’er thou’st doom’d also to be
Bar’d out from social scenes by this thy destiny,
And o’er thy sad’nd mem’ries of sweet departed joys
Thy sicken’d heart will brood and imagine future woes,
And like a fetter’d bird with wild and longing heart,
Thou’lt dayly pine for freedom and murmor at thy lot;

But could’st thou see the future & view that glorious crown,
Awaiting you in Heaven you would not weep nor mourn.
Pure and exalted was thy father’s aim, he saw
A glory in obeying this high celestial law,
For to thousands who’ve died without the light
I will bring eternal joy & make thy crown more bright.
I’d been taught to reveire the Prophet of God
And receive every word as the word of the Lord,
But had this not come through my dear father’s mouth,
I should ne’r have received it as God’s sacred truth.

Helen Mar Kimball


http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-He ... imball.htm



I was going to type out the same paragraph from the book but noted that Beastie had done so. Indeed the referenced quote is found on page 53 of the book in question. My copy is 1989 as well but I bought it only a year ago off Amazon so I assume that it is the most recent addition.

So Bob is wrong on this account. The quote indeed is found in the Book Mormon Polygamy page 53. I am surprised Bob is so wrong on this.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

rcrocket wrote:Ty.

I could write a book on Van Wagoner's excesses.

Helen wrote her own book on the subject, and never mentioned anything like this.

But, go on using the quote. It makes you look informed.



Could you please expound a bit on what you call Can Wagoner's excesses?
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I was going to type out the same paragraph from the book but noted that Beastie had done so. Indeed the referenced quote is found on page 53 of the book in question. My copy is 1989 as well but I bought it only a year ago off Amazon so I assume that it is the most recent addition.

So Bob is wrong on this account. The quote indeed is found in the Book Mormon Polygamy page 53. I am surprised Bob is so wrong on this.


I think we can do what bob is unwilling to do for us - give him the benefit of the doubt. He probably has an older edition of the text.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Thank you to those honest enough to reproduce the specific citations in this matter. Bob, you have no character but we knew that already.

Image
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

Droopy wrote:Because that's not part of the template, it doesn't fit the agenda, and it would expose Merc as the dismal poseur he actually seems to be.

Could any of you exmos possibly come up, at some point, with a criticism of the Church that can't be disposed of essentially in the manner one blows one's nose and then effortlessly drops the Kleenex into the trash?

The boredom created by the dearth of real, substantive argument here is becoming a major theme of its own in this forum.



Oh dear ....

beastie wrote:I own Mormon Polygamy. On page 53, it reads:

There is evidence to suggest that on at least one other occasion Smith convinced one of his would-be young wives to accept polygamy by persuading her that it was a “spiritual order and not a temporal one.” Helen Mar Kimball, fifteen year-old daughter of Apostle Heber C. Kimball, reported that Smith told her: “If you will take this step, it will insure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.” “This promise was so great,” Helen felt, “that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward” (Whitney, “Retrospection”). “I thought through this life my time will be my own,” she wrote in a letter to be opened after her death, “the step I now am taking’s for eternity alone.” (ibid). But she reportedly had misinterpreted Smith’s intent. She confided to a close friend in Nauvoo: “I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I know it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it.” (Lewis, 1848, 19).


My edition was printed in 1989. What year was your edition printed, Bob?



Does this mean that Coggins/Droopy is going to have to change his avatar AGAIN?

Don't worry. Mr Crocket will be along in a moment, and he will explain everything. The critics will be discomfited. Truth is the church's greatest weapon against the latter-day Korihors.
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

liz3564 wrote:It's interesting how the crickets tend to chirp in Bob's direction when he is proven wrong.

;)


I don't hear any crickets. Bob probably held them down and pulled their legs off.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Tori
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Post by _Tori »

What I would like someone to explain to me is, when and who decided that it was time to make these wives more than "for eternity alone"? In other words, the defender's are alway proclaiming that Joseph did not have sex with these young wives (or old ones either). But suddenly after his death, it was 'have at it'? Brigham, John T., Heber and the rest could do the sex thing with their wives they were collecting. But Joseph and Hyrum......nooooo! All they did was a ceremony. No consumating. (yeah, right)

Doesn't make much sense.....does it?
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who cold not hear the music. ----Nietzche
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Tori wrote:What I would like someone to explain to me is, when and who decided that it was time to make these wives more than "for eternity alone"? In other words, the defender's are alway proclaiming that Joseph did not have sex with these young wives (or old ones either). But suddenly after his death, it was 'have at it'? Brigham, John T., Heber and the rest could do the sex thing with their wives they were collecting. But Joseph and Hyrum......nooooo! All they did was a ceremony. No consumating. (yeah, right)

Doesn't make much sense.....does it?


It doesn't make any sense. The purpose of plural marriage was, supposedly, to "raise righteous seed".
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

liz3564 wrote:
Tori wrote:What I would like someone to explain to me is, when and who decided that it was time to make these wives more than "for eternity alone"? In other words, the defender's are alway proclaiming that Joseph did not have sex with these young wives (or old ones either). But suddenly after his death, it was 'have at it'? Brigham, John T., Heber and the rest could do the sex thing with their wives they were collecting. But Joseph and Hyrum......nooooo! All they did was a ceremony. No consumating. (yeah, right)

Doesn't make much sense.....does it?


It doesn't make any sense. The purpose of plural marriage was, supposedly, to "raise righteous seed".


Not even God can guarantee righteous seed. Look at Satan.
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