Thank you Mercury!

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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

liz3564 wrote:
Tori wrote:What I would like someone to explain to me is, when and who decided that it was time to make these wives more than "for eternity alone"? In other words, the defender's are alway proclaiming that Joseph did not have sex with these young wives (or old ones either). But suddenly after his death, it was 'have at it'? Brigham, John T., Heber and the rest could do the sex thing with their wives they were collecting. But Joseph and Hyrum......nooooo! All they did was a ceremony. No consumating. (yeah, right)

Doesn't make much sense.....does it?


It doesn't make any sense. The purpose of plural marriage was, supposedly, to "raise righteous seed".


Once again other than those who deny Joseph Smith was involved in polygamy at all I do not see LDS defenders denying he had sexual relations with the wives that were other than polyandrous or young.
_Tori
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Post by _Tori »

harmony wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
Tori wrote:What I would like someone to explain to me is, when and who decided that it was time to make these wives more than "for eternity alone"? In other words, the defender's are alway proclaiming that Joseph did not have sex with these young wives (or old ones either). But suddenly after his death, it was 'have at it'? Brigham, John T., Heber and the rest could do the sex thing with their wives they were collecting. But Joseph and Hyrum......nooooo! All they did was a ceremony. No consumating. (yeah, right)

Doesn't make much sense.....does it?


It doesn't make any sense. The purpose of plural marriage was, supposedly, to "raise righteous seed".


Not even God can guarantee righteous seed. Look at Satan.[/quote]

LOL! Ain't that the truth! lol

I have yet to hear a good explanation for plural marriage. Producing more members, was that the reason? How about "more righteous women then men", or "All of the men were dying coming across the plains", and "There were just more women in that day". And the one we hear so much..."They practiced it in the Bible, look at Abraham and others", like that explains things perfectly and made it a good/OK thing to do if it was written about in the Bible. (insert rolling eyes smiley here)

I don't know.....I'm not convinced that it was ever a good or right thing.
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who cold not hear the music. ----Nietzche
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

The quote is nowhere on page 53 of my 1986 edition, nor can I find it anywhere in the book (although it might be in there somewhere; I just don't want to read the book all over again to find it).

I did, however, plainly point out that the quote is in another of Van Wagoner's material.

The more significant point I made is that the quote did not come from Helen, but from one of the most virulent anti-Mormon books of the time. Nowhere did Helen say these things in her book, nor did Helen ever make this claim.
_Droopy
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Post by _Droopy »

The more significant point I made is that the quote did not come from Helen, but from one of the most virulent anti-Mormon books of the time. Nowhere did Helen say these things in her book, nor did Helen ever make this claim.



Why do critics always manage to exclude problematic aspects of a historical claim such as this in their arguments against the Church or one of its leaders?

This seems to have a long and notorious presence in anti-Mormonism, whether EV or secular.

Perhaps this is like Yosemite Sam asking Bugs Bunny why he poured Ketchup on his head.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Van Wagoner (who is apparently a "virulent anti Mormon", according to bob) never attributed the statement directly to Helen Mar. In both sources he specified that she "confided this to a close friend".

Moreover, her own words show that she had been misled. Whether or not she would use the stronger word "deceived" or declare she wouldn't have married him had she known the truth can be debated. But the fact that she was, in fact, misled about the nature of the marriage is beyond dispute.

It's typical of defenders of the faith to strain at the gnat while gladly swallowing the camel... and then smacking their lips and asking for more.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

by the way, bob, we eagerly await your response to having been caught "deliberately doctoring" a quote in order to make it seem to say something it did not. snicker.

Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days on earth were about numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from em and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the Prophet at the time that her husband Mr. Lyon was out of fellowship with the Church... In conclusion mother told me not to make her statement to me too public, as it might cause trouble and rouse unpleasant curiosity.


http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... &start=315

(I bolded the part bob left out)
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

Jason Bourne wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
Tori wrote:What I would like someone to explain to me is, when and who decided that it was time to make these wives more than "for eternity alone"? In other words, the defender's are alway proclaiming that Joseph did not have sex with these young wives (or old ones either). But suddenly after his death, it was 'have at it'? Brigham, John T., Heber and the rest could do the sex thing with their wives they were collecting. But Joseph and Hyrum......nooooo! All they did was a ceremony. No consumating. (yeah, right)

Doesn't make much sense.....does it?


It doesn't make any sense. The purpose of plural marriage was, supposedly, to "raise righteous seed".


Once again other than those who deny Joseph Smith was involved in polygamy at all I do not see LDS defenders denying he had sexual relations with the wives that were other than polyandrous or young.


Jesus Christ. What's wrong with you?
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

Droopy wrote:
The more significant point I made is that the quote did not come from Helen, but from one of the most virulent anti-Mormon books of the time. Nowhere did Helen say these things in her book, nor did Helen ever make this claim.



Why do critics always manage to exclude problematic aspects of a historical claim such as this in their arguments against the Church or one of its leaders?

This seems to have a long and notorious presence in anti-Mormonism, whether EV or secular.


How convinced would one be by a rebuttal of an account unfavorable to L. Ron Hubbard, on the sole grounds that it came from a book described by a member of the Church of Scientology as 'one of the most virulent anti-scientology books of the time'?

If there is a considerable measure of truth in some of the criticisms of the beliefs and practices of the CoJCoLDS made by its opponents, now and in the past, one would expect that from time to time former members or others who have become acquainted with it by other means would write or speak about the CoJCoLDS with strong disapproval and condemnation. They will be, to that extent 'anti-Mormon'.

Now of course the mere existence of such disapproving accounts does not prove that the criticisms made in them and elsewhere are in every case true true. On the other hand merely using the label 'anti-Mormon' to suggest that their strong disapproval and condemnation of the CoJCoLDS can be dismissed as based on falsehood is just a trick with words:

1. X has written a book in which he or she expresses dislike and distaste for the CoJCoLDS, and recounts events and experiences which they claim have led them to feel this way.

2. But because X expresses dislike and distaste for the CoJCoLDS he or she is an anti-Mormon.

3. Therefore we can be confident that the alleged events and experiences are falsehoods or distortions.

A subsidiary but related problem is that if the critics' account of the heavy social pressures on church members is an accurate one, then one would expect that it would be quite rare for those members in good standing to say anything against the church or its leaders, especially those ranked as prophets. One would expect that, as in the case under discussion, such criticisms would only be recorded in the writings and speech of those who have left the CoJCoLDS. For some of those who remain in the church, it may be enough for an apologist to attach the label 'apostate' to such critics. Since however this labelling tactic lacks the specious appeal to 'fairness' implied by the use of 'anti-Mormon', it is unlikely to work on non-LDS.
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

beastie wrote:Van Wagoner (who is apparently a "virulent anti Mormon", according to bob) never attributed the statement directly to Helen Mar. In both sources he specified that she "confided this to a close friend".

Moreover, her own words show that she had been misled. Whether or not she would use the stronger word "deceived" or declare she wouldn't have married him had she known the truth can be debated. But the fact that she was, in fact, misled about the nature of the marriage is beyond dispute.

It's typical of defenders of the faith to strain at the gnat while gladly swallowing the camel... and then smacking their lips and asking for more.


I never said that Van Wagoner was a virulent anti-Mormon. You need to follow the thread.

The quote Van Wagoner uses from Helen is from an virulent anti-Mormon expose of the temple ceremony, Catherine Lewis' -- a fact Van Wagoner does not mention. He cites the source all right but isn't very discriminating about it. But, he is not a trained historian.

Compton writes that the marriage was dynastic. (Compton, p. 487.)

Compton cites the source Mercury uses, says it is from an an "anti-Mormon source," and says that the "extremism of this language is suspect" and "is not credible." (Compton, p. 501.) Compton points out that Lewis also suggested that Helen said that she was being pressured to marry her own father, Heber. Compton nonetheless says the passage is "worth considering." I don't see why, but I offer this for what it is worth.

I really amazed at how undiscriminating you are about your sources, how you are willing to accept the most negative thing said about Mormonism -- no matter where it is from or who says it.
_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

harmony wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
Tori wrote:What I would like someone to explain to me is, when and who decided that it was time to make these wives more than "for eternity alone"? In other words, the defender's are alway proclaiming that Joseph did not have sex with these young wives (or old ones either). But suddenly after his death, it was 'have at it'? Brigham, John T., Heber and the rest could do the sex thing with their wives they were collecting. But Joseph and Hyrum......nooooo! All they did was a ceremony. No consumating. (yeah, right)

Doesn't make much sense.....does it?


It doesn't make any sense. The purpose of plural marriage was, supposedly, to "raise righteous seed".


Not even God can guarantee righteous seed. Look at Satan.


Any religion that makes Satan a "child of God" in the first place has serious issues.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
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