asbestosman wrote:I'm not trying to paint exmos as liars or totally untrustworthy or whatever. Maybe I'm not sure exactly what leaves me feeling uneasy about it all--there are probably many factors. Still, I do not think it is justified to divulge the temple content because I believe that the covenants present no imminent danger and I believe that revealing the temple stuff hurts Mormons in a way that I see no need for. Similarly, even though I never promised not to make fun of other religions, I don't see any justification for me to do so (and I'm probably not perfect at it).
So tell me - what covenant prohibits divulging temple content in general? My recollection is that there is a covenant to reveal the names and signs of tokens received. Where is a promise to not talk about "temple content"? Can I talk about any of it? For instance, the initiatory - there's nothing associated with that rite that requires secrecy. Can I talk about that?
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)
skippy the dead wrote:So tell me - what covenant prohibits divulging temple content in general? My recollection is that there is a covenant to reveal the names and signs of tokens received. Where is a promise to not talk about "temple content"? Can I talk about any of it? For instance, the initiatory - there's nothing associated with that rite that requires secrecy. Can I talk about that?
While I think that's a fair point, I was read a letter in more recent visit to the temple which causes me to believe that there were some other implicit covenants made about everything. Furthermore, I think that the covenants aren't the whole issue. Much of the issue is the unnecessary hurt caused to Mormons by revealing the temple content. If the temple promises were protecting criminal activity or otherwise dangerous then I could easily see a justification in revealing it, but otherwise I don't see why it's justified in light of the hurt it causes.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
truth dancer wrote:Let's say you promised to donate $10,000 to a relief agency under the impression they would provide relief to the victims of China's earthquake.
Then you discovered that the relief agency was actually spending the money on oh, let's say fancy condos on Hawaii's beachfront.
Would someone who decided not to give the money to the relief agency be considered untrustworthy?
No.
I don't see how that applies to the temple covenants since I don't see how failing to disclose them somehow makes you suffer personal loss or protects criminals. I see how disclosing them hurts other Mormons though.
To be more clear, if you promised to give everything to the church then found out that the church was using the money in a way you felt violated your conscience, would you be untrustworthy if you did not continue to give everything to the church?
Or if you promised never to say anything bad about your boss, then found out that he was guilty of sexual assault on a child, would you not testify?
The point is sometimes people make promises but end up realizing they were made under false premises, or that to fulfill that promise is wrong or cruel, or inappropriate.
Doesn't mean the person is untrustworthy.
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
asbestosman wrote:I don't see how that applies to the temple covenants since I don't see how failing to disclose them somehow makes you suffer personal loss or protects criminals. I see how disclosing them hurts other Mormons though.
To be more clear, if you promised to give everything to the church then found out that the church was using the money in a way you felt violated your conscience, would you be untrustworthy if you did not continue to give everything to the church?
Or if you promised never to say anything bad about your boss, then found out that he was guilty of sexual assault on a child, would you not testify?
Hmmm, I think I wrote something about not protecting criminal acts. Yep, I did, "I don't see how failing to disclose them [temple content] somehow makes you suffer personal loss or protects criminals."
The point is sometimes people make promises but end up realizing they were made under false premises, or that to fulfill that promise is wrong or cruel, or inappropriate.
Doesn't mean the person is untrustworthy.
I'm not sure I ever said exmos are untrustworthy, but I'm still not comfortable with them disclosing temple content. I'm not comfortable with ex-scientologists disclosing private Scientologist stuff either unless doing so somehow helps prevent crime. If you can't in good conscience continue to participate that's one thing and it's understandable. Can you not in good conscience remain silent about temple content, or do you really find you have some moral obligation to disclose it?
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
asbestosman wrote:While I think that's a fair point, I was read a letter in more recent visit to the temple which causes me to believe that there were some other implicit covenants made about everything. Furthermore, I think that the covenants aren't the whole issue. Much of the issue is the unnecessary hurt caused to Mormons by revealing the temple content. If the temple promises were protecting criminal activity or otherwise dangerous then I could easily see a justification in revealing it, but otherwise I don't see why it's justified in light of the hurt it causes.
Could you expand on the points I bolded? How does divulging temple contents harm or hurt Mormons? Does it cause physical or emotional harm, or is it just embarrassing? The entire Temple Ceremony was made available through the Library of Congress well before I left the church. It was also available on the internet before I left the church. I never felt hurt or harmed by that. I figured if other people made fun of it, they did so because they didn't understand it.
silentkid wrote:Could you expand on the points I bolded? How does divulging temple contents harm or hurt Mormons? Does it cause physical or emotional harm, or is it just embarrassing? The entire Temple Ceremony was made available through the Library of Congress well before I left the church. It was also available on the internet before I left the church. I never felt hurt or harmed by that. I figured if other people made fun of it, they did so because they didn't understand it.
It's emotional hurt. I'm not particularly worried about it being in the Library of Congress. I'm not happy with it being on the internet, but I don't lose sleep over it. What I find most hurtful is when I see people revealing it instead of a faceless library or internet. I think what I'm seeing is how extra hurt my LDS family and friends would be if I ever discussed temple content on top of leaving the church. I don't know how I could justify the hurt it would cause them to know I'd do such a thing. I could certainly justify leaving the church if I didn't think it was true, but I can imagine no pressing need to discuss the temple content in light of the hurt they'd feel if they ever found out.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
asbestosman wrote:It's emotional hurt. I'm not particularly worried about it being in the Library of Congress. I'm not happy with it being on the internet, but I don't lose sleep over it. What I find most hurtful is when I see people revealing it instead of a faceless library or internet. I think what I'm seeing is how extra hurt my LDS family and friends would be if I ever discussed temple content on top of leaving the church. I don't know how I could justify the hurt it would cause them to know I'd do such a thing. I could certainly justify leaving the church if I didn't think it was true, but I can imagine no pressing need to discuss the temple content in light of the hurt they'd feel if they ever found out.
Cool. I understand where you're coming from. Thanks for the response. I avoid discussing temple content with others because it rarely comes up. And when it does, I don't get into specifics. When someone wants specifics, I'll refer them to Buerger's The Mysteries of Godliness. Or I tell them to look it up on the internet. I think there is a difference between mocking the ceremony and discussing what goes on.
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 20, 2008 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don't' think it makes sense to suffer significant personal costs for something you disbelieve in. Anyhow, I know of no members who have deeded their homes over to the church so perhaps you're actually keeping it well enough. I know of no members who are complaining about exmos not living up to that covenant or the promise not to take God's name in vain. I wonder why that is.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
I'll be frank, even if it sounds a bit harsh. I think the Mormon temple ceremony is odd, and members know it is odd. Many members are a bit taken aback by its oddity the first time they go through, before they acclimate. I think that when details of the temple are revealed, even if it's not in a deliberately mocking fashion, that Mormons feel mocked because it's just so strange.
I wouldn't reveal temple content without a reason to do so (such as derailing a thread into the telestial kingdom for a reason that was more important to me than the feelings of LDS regarding the temple). But it seems to me in the vast majority of cases a member would only happen upon revealed temple content if they were looking for information about it, or deliberately going to a site filled with exmormons. In those cases, I really don't think they have cause to complain, because they went looking for it. It reminds me of how MAD has evolved (or devolved) to go to such extents to protect the feelings of believers. If your feelings are hurt when someone criticizes your religion (speaking generic you, not you abman), then my best advice is to not go to places where you know it's going to be criticized.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.