Born as 'Sinners'

[_huckelberry]

Where is this Satan as our father coming from? Scripture ref please?

John 8:41 You do what your father did. They said to him, we were not born of fornication,we have one Father, even God. Jesus said to them, If God were your Father you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God. I came not of my own accord but he sent me. Wy do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil and your will is to do your fathers desires. He was a murderer from the beginning.

Jersey Girl, that is the only scripture with that sort of idea that I remember. I do not think it attatches well to original sin. Jesus comments are clearly directed back at people attacking him, calling him illegitimete. I suppose the discussion has a hint that Jesus will be killed because of these attacks. I do not think it is any sort of basis for a general anthropology.

[_Jersey Girl]

Where is this Satan as our father coming from? Scripture ref please?

John 8:41 You do what your father did. They said to him, we were not born of fornication,we have one Father, even God. Jesus said to them, If God were your Father you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God. I came not of my own accord but he sent me. Wy do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil and your will is to do your fathers desires. He was a murderer from the beginning.

Jersey Girl, that is the only scripture with that sort of idea that I remember. I do not think it attatches well to original sin. Jesus comments are clearly directed back at people attacking him, calling him illegitimete. I suppose the discussion has a hint that Jesus will be killed because of these attacks. I do not think it is any sort of basis for a general anthropology.

I just don't even know what the OP is talking about, huck.

[_huckelberry]

Jersey girl, I was puzzled the same.

[_GoodK]

How can you keep a straight face while contemplating whether or not babies are born sinless or not? Holy cow...

Oxford dictionary- Sin: an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

[_JonasS]

I think it is all BS. I do not believe we are born as sinners and nor do I believe Satan is our Father. It is not logical for me to accept.

To me, if Satan were our Father then, he, himself would preceed God. To me God is greater than Satan. The only way I could accept this would be if Satan were not the same Satan we understand. Not a creater, not a being, but rather a state of mind or being within and /or around oneself. I barely believe in Satan, I do believe in something negative, but not sure if that thing is in the form we are taught to fear. What if Satan were something else? and what if "Father" meant something else?

I think babies are perfect in entirety. Like when one is young and unknowledgable, there is a certain innocence and inner peace. The Bible say to be as a child. I believe we are born into a world of sin and that we can fall into temptation of sin as we get older.

I have a firm belief that children at young ages should be taught of all religions and beliefs and as uch of everything as possible, both theist and atheist and allow them to discuss it as they get older so that they can rationalise for themselves and not fall into a trap of thinking they believe something because it is all they know, or it is what is comfortable. They should be able to understand all and choose for themselves that which is most suitable for them and their lives. I believe that all religions are as true as you make them and that you can pick and choose as you like, because none are right and none are wrong. Kinda like there are no absolute truths, but merely truths that adapt as you make them and move through life.

If a child is brought up in a certain belief system, they will either stick with it or completely leave all belief systems or spend their life searching for that one true church. For example, I am LDS. I feel comfortable in church and I have visited churches that friends are comfortable in, but are strange and make little sense to me, but to them it is right. It is only uncomfortable for me because I am not used to the structures of those churches.

All religion is confusing and we feel the need to have some sort of belief to focus us and to take away our reponsibility. And so religion is created, but we are all different and all need different beliefs to suit our needs and so we seek that which caters to our needs, to us we are under the false impression that it is true because it makes us feel good as our needs are taken care off, or we are well and trully brainwashed. Thus all religions are true and relative.

So, to me, we are not born sinners and nor are we children of Satan. Merely because that does not suit my needs. I do not feel the need to constantly tell myself I am a sinner in order to shape up a bit in the way expected of me and I cannot accept that I am constantly falling short even when I am not. I would rather fall short and know I am but be happy for falling short and know that it is ok and that I can be happy but still learn from my mistakes.

To me, in my head, I visualise everything on a kind of pedigree chart without the vertical lines. There are different levels and different complexities to everything in life and we don't need to stick on one plane as it will not always advance us.

I think that it is important to have morals and standards, to think ethically, but also to pick and choose as we need. There are many things that are obvious and would apply to all states of life, these things being fundamental and basic that even cavemen would abide by them. I often imagine when thinking what I ought to do when making a decision (not that I make a lot of descisions), what people would have done centuaries ago. And compare to what people would do now. If it is the same then it is fundamental because it is something that doesn't change and is widely accepted.

I am LDS, and soemtimes I am even TBM but I waver back and forth because although mst of the time Mormonism suits me and my life, sometimes I need something different. And even though I don't always believe, I still live the Gospel pretty much. I don't even try it comes naturally because that is who I am. I guess one would hope I don't make a rash decision whilst I am feeling TBM or I might regret it when I am feeling less TBM. LOL.

I think I derailed myself and went off on a HUGE tangent. Ooops.

I would go on and I probably could, but I am doing some Institute of Physics volunteering all day tomorow and I need to sleep as I had done today also and went straight to work afterwards and only just sat down recently. My feet hurt. :D


Pirate.