Charles Manson and the Mormons

[_Reformed Egyptian]

I was reading about Charles Manson the other day and found the similarities between himself, Joseph Smith and their followers to be quite shockingly similar.

Here we have two people who are so charismatic as to get women to align themselves sexually to them (with some talking, urging and persuading).

Both groups have the heads of their organizations / cults awarding women (and therefore sexual favors) to their followers.

Both groups have women who think so highly of their leaders, and so little of themselves, that they willingly ‘obey’ their leaders and marry / prostitute / give sexual favors to whomever the leaders tell them.

Here we have two people who are able to convince their followers to commit murder (Danites - not sure how ‘real’ or ‘accurate’ those reports are of Joseph Smith’s Danite gang…Mountain Meadows Massacre (yes that's the time of BY but the principle of blind obedience in LDSland is still the same) wherein 120 innocent men, women and children were killed…and the multiple killings of ‘The Family’, Charles Manson’s followers committed on his orders).

Both groups felt very strongly about their leaders…and BELIEVED in them implicitly and explicitly.

Both groups felt that there was an impending doom and Armageddon and destruction going to happen upon the ‘wicked’ (ie. anyone who was NOT them).

I felt sick reading about Charles Manson because, frankly, I found the similarities in the thinking and actions of both him and Joseph Smith and their followers to be quite profoundly similar.

I also found that the blind (and yet oh so faithful) willingness of todays TBM Mormons to give their 14 year old girls to prophets and or already married men (like my wife has said she’d willingly do since God Himself is leading and standing behind this Church)…well, it makes me sickeningly frustrated, sad and embarrassed to be associated with people who think this way — the thinking (NON-thinking) and not necessarily the people themselves.

“No harm in Mormonism”, “does much good” and “isn’t all that bad”…bull crap.

[_truth dancer]

Hi RE...

This phenomenon is really in the forefront of my mind lately with three polygamous cults/religions in the news: The House of Yahweh, the FLDS, and Michael Travesser.

It really is fascinating to see how similar these cult/religious leaders are, and how so many women will sexually attach themselves to powerful men.

I'm seriously thinking of doing some research into these women followers because their "testimonies," (and those of early LDS women who engaged in polygamy) all sound incredibly similar. It is stunning. Seriously stunning.

A book you may enjoy... Feet of Clay by Anthony Storr discusses cult/religious leaders and why they have followers and believers.


http://www.amazon.com/Feet-Clay-Anthony ... 0684834952

"Every generation has its charismatic spiritual leaders, its gurus. Some are true saints while others conceal unspeakable depravity. Anthony Storr, Oxford professor of psychiatry, analyzes an interesting array of gurus and finds many commonalities among them--an isolated childhood, a need for certainty, a demand for obedience. He also elucidates aspects of this psychological profile in various intellectual, artistic, and political figures of history. This eye-opening book invokes a larger issue: in our search for guidance and truth, when and why do we cross the line from reasoned inquirer to unquestioning follower? "

Bold mine.


Another book that discusses how and why we believe as we do is Kluge...by Gary Marcus. It is filled with all sorts of research and makes readers rethink (smile) what we think and believe. :-)

http://www.newsweek.com/id/136061

~dancer~

[_Yong Xi]

Obviously, we know that Joseph Smith approached women for the purpose of marriage. Is anyone aware of evidence to suggest that women (plural wives or others) approached Joseph Smith?

[_Reformed Egyptian]

Obviously, we know that Joseph Smith approached women for the purpose of marriage. Is anyone aware of evidence to suggest that women (plural wives or others) approached Joseph Smith?

Wasn't there like 100-ish women who were sealed to Joseph Smith AFTER his death?

I'm not 100% certain about women approaching him or 'initiating things'...

I've not read In Sacred Loneliness, I'd expect if that did occur, that it'd be covered or at mentioned in that book?

[_Reformed Egyptian]

Hi RE...

This phenomenon is really in the forefront of my mind lately with three polygamous cults/religions in the news: The House of Yahweh, the FLDS, and Michael Travesser.

It really is fascinating to see how similar these cult/religious leaders are, and how so many women will sexually attach themselves to powerful men.

I'm seriously thinking of doing some research into these women followers because their "testimonies," (and those of early LDS women who engaged in polygamy) all sound incredibly similar. It is stunning. Seriously stunning.

A book you may enjoy... Feet of Clay by Anthony Storr discusses cult/religious leaders and why they have followers and believers.


http://www.amazon.com/Feet-Clay-Anthony ... 0684834952

"Every generation has its charismatic spiritual leaders, its gurus. Some are true saints while others conceal unspeakable depravity. Anthony Storr, Oxford professor of psychiatry, analyzes an interesting array of gurus and finds many commonalities among them--an isolated childhood, a need for certainty, a demand for obedience. He also elucidates aspects of this psychological profile in various intellectual, artistic, and political figures of history. This eye-opening book invokes a larger issue: in our search for guidance and truth, when and why do we cross the line from reasoned inquirer to unquestioning follower? "

Bold mine.


Another book that discusses how and why we believe as we do is Kluge...by Gary Marcus. It is filled with all sorts of research and makes readers rethink (smile) what we think and believe. :-)

http://www.newsweek.com/id/136061

~dancer~

I was just reading about 11 elderly (ages 86 to 92) being burned to death in Kenya for being suspected of being witches.

This whole magical world view of the early LDS membership (hunting for gold, treasure, divining rods, peep / seer stones)...witches and vodoo and black magic of today...cults where people 'spiritually know' they are the ONE TRUE 'way' (Heaven's Gate, LDS, Jehovah's Witness, Jim Jones, FLDS, etc)...it all has me seeing that we're all pre-programmed and or pre-disposed towards this kind of thinking / belief / following.

Thanks for the book ideas...I shall get these onto my 'reading list'...and hopefully it'll help me put my finger on just what it is that I'm now starting to become aware of...ie. the WHY behind all of this insanity.

[_ubermarie]

It really is fascinating to see how similar these cult/religious leaders are, and how so many women will sexually attach themselves to powerful men.

~dancer~

Is it just me? Or does this remind anyone else of Gaius Baltar?

[_truth dancer]

Obviously, we know that Joseph Smith approached women for the purpose of marriage. Is anyone aware of evidence to suggest that women (plural wives or others) approached Joseph Smith?

Hi Yong Xi,

My understanding is that in the case of Michael, he told the girls/women that seven virgins would come to him... subsequently, seven ladies were told by God that they each were one of the seven. (smile)

In the case of Joseph Smith, the practice was kept secret with the exception of the women he told God commanded to become his wives, and the men who were his best friends.

In other words, it makes sense that in absence of the teaching of polygamy, women wouldn't come forth because these women believed adultery and fornication was an abomination. OTOH, the women who were taught that their leader embodied God and seven virgins would hold on to him had the idea implanted in their minds.

I do think there are women who want to be attached to powerful men and may very well believe this instinct is of God. Their desire to be one of the chosen Trump's their sense of decency, morality, or appropriateness. Or in the case of some of the girls and women who Joseph Smith coerced, their assurance of eternal life was a pretty strong incentive to receive a witness.

You have a fourteen year old girl who has the option of becoming the "wife" of Joseph Smith ensuring she and her whole family would receive eternal life, OR she could decline and for the rest of her life would have to live with the "knowledge" that she did not obey God.

~dancer~

[_Coach T]

You ex-mo's are all frackin' idiots. (Just kidding)

[_Dr. Shades]

You ex-mo's are all frackin' idiots. (Just kidding)

Do you have something to add to this discussion, Coach T?

[_Coach T]

I was attempting to be humorous. Sorry weak attempt. Thought they'd get the Battlestar Galactica reference. Am I going to be shoved out a door here or something?