Charles Manson and the Mormons

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_LifeOnaPlate
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Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Coach T wrote:I was attempting to be humorous. Sorry weak attempt. Thought they'd get the Battlestar Galactica reference. Am I going to be shoved out a door here or something?


I suggest tap dancing along with the rest by listing off the names of some unsavory characters, lump in Joseph Smith, rinse and repeat, to mix metaphors.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Coach T
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Post by _Coach T »

Aha! Will that get me in good with ex-mo's and moderators?
_LifeOnaPlate
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Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Coach T wrote:Aha! Will that get me in good with ex-mo's and moderators?


I'm not a big presence around here. I'm seen as something of a bother, if seen at all. Sorry!
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Oh yeah, Reformed Dude?

Joseph Smith never used the term Helter-Skelter!
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

David Koresh had a similar, if not the same, influence on his female followers.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_LifeOnaPlate
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Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

I was reading about Lucifer the other day, you know, the "accuser," and he had a lot in common with this fellow Donald Rumsfeld. Anyone?
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_huckelberry
_Emeritus
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Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:29 am

Post by _huckelberry »

charlie is a pretty interesting example of the catagory prophet. Well perhaps not so interesting as to warent an lengthy study of his teaching.

I will volunteer that even if there are common aspects with other prophets Charlie is not only extreme but his belief system is quite foreign to many other prophets. Even Joseph Smith. So to be honest the differece between Charlie and Joseph is fairly large.

But for the purpose of discussion the big difference between the two makes the similarities more interesting, puzzeling.


We be warned how deeply people can desire to believe in magic power. A person offering the opportunity to believe magic can influence people.

I was thinking of this subject as an extension of the ongoing debate about how we as a society can leave destructive magical thinking behind. Does it work to just reject religion?

I think the first difficulty with the prescription is figuring out what all is included in religion. Manson is an example of late 60 LSD cult. A particularly twisted version, but there was no authoritive version of the cult so it changed helter skelter across the country. Can one be sure it was a religion, (take this, may it serve you well)

I would venture a definition cult as a social form cultivated for power knowledge and direction.

Is there a way humans can exist without social goups which do this?

I do not think so but I think there are values we can hold to which push our social groups in a direction oppostie to that direction which Charlie so colorfully illustrates.
_Droopy
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Tin foil hats: on! Secret decoder ray ring: operational!

Post by _Droopy »

This is the first great test. This probably should not even be responded to, given its obvious intellectual vacuity. The question is: can it be done without ad hominems? Without personal attacks? Without invective, yet, while still being honest regarding its obvious inanity?

Let's find out...



I was reading about Charles Manson the other day and found the similarities between himself, Joseph Smith and their followers to be quite shockingly similar.


That's strange, I've noticed no coceivable association between them in 40 years of studying about both.

Here we have two people who are so charismatic as to get women to align themselves sexually to them (with some talking, urging and persuading).

Both groups have the heads of their organizations / cults awarding women (and therefore sexual favors) to their followers.


The author here apparanlty has no understanding of plural marriage as it was understood and practiced by the early Saints, so we can skip this.


Both groups have women who think so highly of their leaders, and so little of themselves, that they willingly ‘obey’ their leaders and marry / prostitute / give sexual favors to whomever the leaders tell them.


Ed Decker level slanderousness without concomitant understanding of the history or doctrine.

Here we have two people who are able to convince their followers to commit murder (Danites - not sure how ‘real’ or ‘accurate’ those reports are of Joseph Smith’s Danite gang…Mountain Meadows Massacre (yes that's the time of BY but the principle of blind obedience in LDSland is still the same) wherein 120 innocent men, women and children were killed…and the multiple killings of ‘The Family’, Charles Manson’s followers committed on his orders).


Not a shred of historical evidence that the leaders of the Church had the slightest thing to do with the depredations and isolated incidents perpetrated by these Mormons who were acting completely outside of LDS norms, doctrine, and moral teaching. The ideology and psychological motivations of Manson and his "faimily' have no relation whatever to what motivated either the rogue Danites or the perpetrators of the MMM. This is why defenders of the Church get weary reburying these dead horses time after time after time.

Get serious please (a tall order, I know, given the substance of this thread).


Both groups felt very strongly about their leaders…and BELIEVED in them implicitly and explicitly.


A logically meaningless comparison. Mormons, Roman Catholics, Shaolin monks, and Manson family leaders feel very strongly about there leaders, ergo...

Both groups felt that there was an impending doom and Armageddon and destruction going to happen upon the ‘wicked’ (ie. anyone who was NOT them).


Mormons believed in a future eschaton, with some significant doctrinal differences, very much along the lines of most Christians of the day, and as most conservative Christians still do today. I'm not sure how Manson's convoluted ideology, derived from a concept of looming race war and Beatles lyrics combined with bizarre interpretations of the Book of Revelation are relevant.


I felt sick reading about Charles Manson because, frankly, I found the similarities in the thinking and actions of both him and Joseph Smith and their followers to be quite profoundly similar.


It which case it appears that our author has a mind as fertile--and overwrought--as Manson's.

I also found that the blind (and yet oh so faithful) willingness of todays TBM Mormons to give their 14 year old girls to prophets and or already married men (like my wife has said she’d willingly do since God Himself is leading and standing behind this Church)…well, it makes me sickeningly frustrated, sad and embarrassed to be associated with people who think this way — the thinking (NON-thinking) and not necessarily the people themselves.


It is also sickening to meet someone who thinks like Charles Manson, so let's call it even.

There. Not bad. A few derogatory remarks about the author, but I see no possibility of avoiding them given the...subject matter.
_LifeOnaPlate
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Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Interesting analysis. But you're talking to a guy with no qualms about lying in a temple recommend interview because "the Mormons lied first." So much for integrity, there.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Droopy
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Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Post by _Droopy »

Who lied in a recommend interview? Did I miss something?
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