MYTH DISPELLED: LDS Apologists Are Paid

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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Moved for obvious reasons...

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Trevor wrote:Then, I would say that it is technically you are employed by the LDS Church, at least in part, for your contributions to apologetic scholarship. I don't think this is a big deal, but it is more significant than pocket change.

You've read that article on exemplar historiography in BYU Studies and concluded that it's an apologetic piece?

You appear to be conflating Mormon-related and apologetic. The two are not synonymous. I've written a number of Mormon-related pieces -- including articles in enyclopedias, book reviews, etc. -- that only an antishock8 (see below) could possibly view as "apologetic."

Trevor wrote:You have indicated that you did include your apologetic efforts in two categories of "citizenship" and "scholarship." The citizenship part is also interesting, because the inclusion of your apologetic efforts there likely indicates the degree to which the LDS Church has incorporated apologetics into its premiere academic institution. If it didn't fit, you would not put it there.

I also included service in a bishopric, etc. It's a way of indicating what one does with one's time when one is not teaching, preparing for teaching, grading, researching, and writing.

I suppose that it will now be said that I've been paid for holding a church calling. Yet, had I not been called to that position, I almost certainly would have received the same rank advancements and the same salary increases -- unless, in fact, my not having spent many hours per week on bishopric duties had allowed me (as it might well have) to achieve faster advancement and greater salary increases because I was able to research and write more.

Trevor wrote:Apologetic work is a significant part of your academic career and a substantive part of your job at BYU. You are a paid teacher, scholar, and apologist. And, I would probably weigh the roles in that order (first being most important), but that's just my guess.

Yet the University has never asked me to write anything apologetic, and I've been faulted on several occasions for having done so. And there is no reason to believe that, had any and all Mormon-related writing disappeared entirely from my resumé, my rank and salary would be any less than they are now. In fact, my salary might, very possibly, have been somewhat higher.

You left out administrator. I have, to my great distress, spent perfectly enormous amounts of time on administrative matters over the past ten or twelve years.

antishock8 wrote:Mr. Peterson euphemistically calls himself a historian rather than an apologist. Whatever gets you to sleep at night my friend...

If antishock8, based upon his close inspection of my work on the ten separated intellects in the cosmology of Hamid al-Din al-Kirmani, the Physics of Ibn Sina, the biography of Muhammad, al-Ghazali's Incoherence of the Philosophers, the A‘lam al-Nubuwwa of Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, the Medical Aphorisms of Moses Maimonides, Ibn Rushd's Middle Commentary on Aristotle's De Anima, etc., wants to label it all Mormon apologetics, that's his weirdly eccentric privilege.

harmony wrote:So BYU has asked you to not engage in apologetics, and you do it anyway?

No. The University as such has told me nothing, one way or the other. I was advised by well-meaning colleagues at the time of my hiring to stay away from Mormon topics, have been told similar things by well-meaning colleagues since, and have been criticized by one department administrator for having written on Mormon topics. For two or three years, in fact, his views on the matter probably had a negative impact on my annual salary increase -- which will affect my salary for the remainder of my career. I disagreed with him, and I declined to comply with his preferences. This is largely a matter of administrator autonomy. I have one close colleague and friend (in another BYU college) whose salary and rank advancement have been much more negatively affected than mine because of his writing on Mormon topics, even though his non-Mormon publication record is extremely, unusually, good. Writing on Mormonism not only didn't help him; it hurt him. He was penalized for it, and was explicitly told that he was being penalized, and has for a number of years now avoided further Mormon-related writing. That is, from what I can tell, par for the course in that particular college; fortunately, my college hasn't been so draconian about the matter. Still, while I can't guarantee that my own writing on Mormonism has ever helped me, salary-wise, I'm reasonably sure that it has hurt me. Fortunately, though, the damage hasn't been catastrophic.

harmony wrote:
(And I'm beginning to tire of being asked to justify my career, my paycheck, etc., to strangers on a message board.)

There's a simple solution to that: avoid making statements about your career, your various paychecks, etc. on the boards. Avoiding making such statements on an individual board, such as this one, won't suffice, since your posts on one board will get quoted on another board quite often. So... avoid posts about your career (degree, responsibilities, tasks, etc), your paychecks (source, amount, expenditures attached thereto, etc) on every board, and no doubt the need to justify both or either will disappear.

Right. Refuse to answer questions, thus subjecting myself to endless accusations of having something to hide, and let the Scratches of the world continue to spread falsehoods. Consider, for example, this specimen, from 15 March:

Mister Scratch wrote:I'm quite curious as to the actual amount DCP and others have "raked in." I wouldn't be surprised if DCP's tally extends into the mid-six figures.

What nonsense.

I don't bring this topic up.

Well, I'm done. I need to do some more editing on a tenth-century Arabic Mopologetic text, etc. I knew it was a foregone conclusion that I would be simplistically revealed as a paid Mopologist hack, doing the bidding of the Morg for $$$, no matter what I said. I'm done with this month's Scratchoscopy.
_cksalmon
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Re: Moved for obvious reasons...

Post by _cksalmon »

Daniel Peterson wrote:(And I'm beginning to tire of being asked to justify my career, my paycheck, etc., to strangers on a message board.)


I'd simply ignore the implied requests for justification then, personally. Those of us who don't care wouldn't mind. Those who do are highly unlikely to be mollified by any explanation.

Best.

Chris
_LifeOnaPlate
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Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

antishock8 wrote:
Droopy wrote:The Maxwell Institute is independent, though it is associated with BYU. The "Church" does not pay DCP to write books about the intellectual vacuities of people like the anonymous Mr. Scratch.


This is how "independent" the NEIL A. MAXWELL institute is:

http://farms.BYU.edu/ispartstaff.php?fi ... nistration

Please feel free to tell me where FARMS, BYU, the Church, and the Institute part ways...? 'Cause it seems pretty f*****g' dependent on the Church to pay these people, for BYU to employ them, and for member of or contributors to FARMS to... Oh, I don't know.. Just look at the URL that is so clearly indepedent of any connection, whatsoever, to FARMS or BYU.


It's actually the Neal A. Maxwell Institute.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_LifeOnaPlate
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Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Droopy wrote:
I think this is an extremely problematic statement.


Scratch, do you really have a reading comprehension problem of such magnitude? What, precisely, is the problem here? How far can your mental and ethical deterioration actually go?


I believe Scratch verily does. For example:
http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... 403#158403
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Dr. Shades
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Re: Moved for obvious reasons...

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I have one close colleague and friend (in another BYU college) whose salary and rank advancement have been much more negatively affected than mine because of his writing on Mormon topics, even though his non-Mormon publication record is extremely, unusually, good. Writing on Mormonism not only didn't help him; it hurt him. He was penalized for it, and was explicitly told that he was being penalized, and has for a number of years now avoided further Mormon-related writing.


That seems downright bizarre to me. Why would his higher-ups at a BYU college, of all places, choose to penalize him for writing on Mormon topics? And isn't such penalization quite petty?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Moved for obvious reasons...

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

I find it bizarre, too. But it's there. Which is one of the reasons that it's so ironically amusing to read about how we Mopologist hacks do this for the money, because BYU encourages and supports us in it, etc.
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: Moved for obvious reasons...

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I find it bizarre, too. But it's there. Which is one of the reasons that it's so ironically amusing to read about how we Mopologist hacks do this for the money, because BYU encourages and supports us in it, etc.


It's no better for us amateurs, DCP. As "one of the top amateur Mopologists," (according to Mister Scratch, 5-23-08) I can verify I have received no money for my efforts, which largely consist of cheerleading.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:I just see this as being very problematic, because apologetics is being done for the LDS Church, by members of the LDS Church, and so it seems odd to me that anyone would try to deny that, in essence, the Church itself either funds, or approves of the funds which are given to support Mopologetics.

That casual "in essence" is a Scratchian blank check. It is a universal solvent or elixir that permits him to transmute non-evidence into evidence so as to power his on-going crusade.

That some LDS people are defending LDS beliefs, in Bizarro Scratchworld, proves that the Church is funding them. Abracadabra! Presto! Shazaam!


That's not what I said at all. Why do you insist on distorting and mis-reading what I've said, Prof. P.? Please re-read what I wrote, and then you can feel free to comment upon whether or not you feel the Church might "approve of the funds" given to Mopologetics, ala what happened during the Hoffman forgeries.

Mister Scratch wrote:It seems highly unlikely to me that one or more of the Brethren were not involved in all of this at some point.

Scratch's personal sense of probabilities (assuming it's even genuine) doesn't represent evidence. The Brethren have not been involved in funding FARMS at any point.


You yourself have suggested that you've reported to the Brethren on the "state of Internet anti-Mormonism" on a few occasions. Right?

Mister Scratch wrote:I would imagine that this was set up rather like the purchase of Mark Hoffman's documents---I.e., the Church would have some wealthy member purchase the goods and then "donate" them to the Church.

Likewise, Scratch's conspiracy-theorist imagination doesn't constitute evidence, either. Nothing remotely like this has ever happened in the history of FARMS.
[/quote]

But you are providing us with mixed evidence, Prof. P. How is it that the Church, and Church leaders, have absolutely no say whatsoever as to what happens with Mopologetics, and yet some person you know was actually penalized for writing LDS apologetics? Why have lawyers been installed as heads of the Church history department, rather than trained, professional historians? Did the Church have no say in that?

Now, I recognize and accept that there is somewhat of a "disconnect" between FARMS and the Church, since the theories you guys were concocting ran in direct opposition to FP declarations (cf. the now-infamous "2nd Watson Letter"). But just how wide is this disconnect?

Anyways, the central point remains, of course: LDS apologists are paid. End of story. Why Coggins, Bob, and DCP would be so upset about someone stating this plain and obvious fact is anybody's guess.
_Mister Scratch
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Re: Moved for obvious reasons...

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I find it bizarre, too. But it's there. Which is one of the reasons that it's so ironically amusing to read about how we Mopologist hacks do this for the money, because BYU encourages and supports us in it, etc.


So, who *does* approve of this? You guys are running an institute with a GA's name on it... We have seen instances where your theories Trump FP statements (2nd Watson Letter), and yet you are trying to distance Mopologetics from the institutional Church. Why? How big of a distance is there? (No one, as far as I know, said that you did this "for the money," by the way. You're not trying to distort or mis-read what people have been saying, are you?)
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

I must really be insane.

Fortunately, I have to leave in a few minutes.

Mister Scratch wrote:You yourself have suggested that you've reported to the Brethren on the "state of Internet anti-Mormonism" on a few occasions. Right?

There were two or three meetings, widely separated in time and with few people in common, a few years ago. A member of the Seventy who is an old friend knows of my interest in anti-Mormonism, and so he saw to it that I was invited. Nothing whatever came of these meetings, so far as I can tell.

Mister Scratch wrote:How is it that the Church, and Church leaders, have absolutely no say whatsoever as to what happens with Mopologetics, and yet some person you know was actually penalized for writing LDS apologetics?

I didn't say that he was penalized for writing LDS apologetics. I said that he was penalized for writing on Mormon topics. The two are, as I've pointed out, not necessarily the same thing.

He was penalized by an administrator in his college. Administrators in colleges and departments are drawn from the faculty of those colleges and departments. They aren't General Authorities.

Mister Scratch wrote:Why have lawyers been installed as heads of the Church history department, rather than trained, professional historians? Did the Church have no say in that?

(a) I have absolutely no idea. I'm not privy to such deliberations. (That said, for what it's worth, I think Elder Marlin Jensen and Richard Turley are doing a very good job.)

(b) What has this got to do with anything? Departments at Church headquarters that are under direct General Authority supervision are quite distinct from University departments led by faculty that are under University colleges led by faculty that are under the academic vice president (currently a widely respected professor of English literature).

Mister Scratch wrote:Now, I recognize and accept that there is somewhat of a "disconnect" between FARMS and the Church, since the theories you guys were concocting ran in direct opposition to FP declarations (cf. the now-infamous "2nd Watson Letter"). But just how wide is this disconnect?

Silly and misleading, but deftly done!

Mister Scratch wrote:Anyways, the central point remains, of course: LDS apologists are paid. End of story.

Simplistic, just as I said.

Enjoy!
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