MA&D's passionate love affair with the FLDS church

[_asbestosman]

I hope Warren Jeffs rots in jail and maybe is reincarnated as a 14-year old girl to be foricbly "married" for his part in statutory rape.

I hope the FLDS children end up somewhere safe.

I hope our country isn't willing to remove constitutional rights to privacy and due process in the name of "saving the children".

The right to privacy and due process are not the right to commit any crimes you want in the privacy of your compound, but we need to follow standards so that we avoid hurting innocent people.

I doubt the FLDS are completely innocent, but I also doubt that all children are in danger. I think it is dangerous to paint them all with a broad brush. I also think it's dangerous to do nothing. It is a difficult situation.

I couldn't care less how related or unrelated the FLDS are to the LDS. I would have the same opinion if it were Muslims, or any other group.

[_mbeesley]

Whenever the topic of the raid on the FLDS compound is discussed at MA&D, I read almost nothing but condemnation of the Texas authorities who carried it out.

Then you need to read more carefully. Poster uniformly agree that if there was sexual or physical abuse, it needs to stop. However, posters who have some rudimentary knowledge about the law, appropriate legal procedures, and evidence, are not shy about pointing out that the Texas authorities blew it.

Why it was wrong, the damage it'll do to FLDS children, how and why the FLDS church members' rights were supposedly violated, and the list goes on and on.

So? If you really want to condemn the MADB posters, find a post where anyone has suggested that it doesn't matter if any of the FLDS children were abused, Texas had no business trying to stop actual abuse.

Nowhere do I see them acknowledge that the girls are all groomed to become the "wives" of some old guy perhaps four times their age once they hit twelve or thirteen years old or so, with the statutory rape that goes along with it.

That's right, the posters at MADB don't generally live in fantasy worlds. They deal with the actual evidence, which shows ZERO 12 or 13 year old girls at the Ranch who were married. A little less hyperpbole would suit you well.

Or how the boys, if they are the favorite of one of the leaders, are groomed to become abusers themselves or, if they aren't a favorite of one of the leaders, are fated to be kicked out onto the streets with no education, no contacts, and no support system.

Years ago, when Warren Jeffs ascended to the throne in Short Creek, there was some of this going on. I am unaware of any evidence suggesting that such a practice has continued at the YFZ ranch.

Heck, it even came out that many of the boys, too, were apparently victims of sexual assault.

At the rist of inviting your derision . . . CFR.

It was also shown that the kids had abnormally high incidences of broken bones, consistent with a pattern of physical abuse.

Really? Abnormal for a metropolitan kid? Or abnormal for a kid who lives and works on a farm?

But what do the vast majority of the threads, posts, and participants at MA&D choose to focus on? That's right, the horrible, awful Texas law enforcement and DCFS officials who broke into the ranch of a perfectly harmless religious group with impeccable family values who would never dream of harming anyone, much less a child.

Well, the Texas Third District Court of Appeal was less than enamored with the way Texas law enforcement and the DCFS had handled the matter. Again, your hyperbole is getting in the way of reasoned analysis.

It's thoroughly disgusting.

Not really. The MADB poster have concentrated on procedure and perceived bigotry. The picture you have painted does not exist.

Here we have the corporate LDS church taking great pains to distance itself from the FLDS church in every possible way, yet, on the other hand, we have the MA&Dites acting like the FLDSers are their intellectual and religious blood brothers. Acting as though a criticism of the FLDS church is a criticism of the LDS church as well. All for one and one for all. It's like they have some sort of passionate love affair going on.

Your description of the MADB posters' opinions on the topic is inaccurate.

So, to all the MA&Dites reading this, I ask you: [b]Which is it? Is the FLDS church an apostate sect of Mormonism, or isn't it?

I don't think any of the current FLDS members were ever members of the LDS Church, so they can't be apostate, i.e. they were never here so they could not leave.

Are they completely unrelated to your own church, or aren't they?

Has anyone ever said they are completely unrelated? Of course we have the same founding father, if you will, Joseph Smith. But we do not, in the 21st Century, believe the same with regards to plural marriage, priesthood authority and many other doctrines.

Do you disagree with their marital practices, or don't you?

Do you want to be more specific?

Do you agree with the Texas authorities that the abuse needed to stop, or don't you?

IF there was abuse, it needed to stop. I have not seen any evidence of abuse. Only allegations.

[_bcspace]

They are unrelated. How is that confusing to you?

Oh come now.

How much MORE related can these groups be?

They may not be one and the same but related? ABSOLUTELY!

The FLDS choose to sever those relations and connections when they broke off.

Same father, which makes them siblings. ;-)

Disinherited and disowned. No relation.

[_Chap]

They are unrelated. How is that confusing to you?

Oh come now.

How much MORE related can these groups be?

They may not be one and the same but related? ABSOLUTELY!

The FLDS choose to sever those relations and connections when they broke off.

Same father, which makes them siblings. ;-)

Disinherited and disowned. No relation.

Yup. And the FDLDS probably don't think you are a real Mormon either.

Do you think they are Christians, though?

[_Sethbag]

What was their basis for action? They should have stopped immediately when it was known who Rozita Swinton was and what she was doing. Their basis for action therefore seems to be rooted in revulsion for someone else's beliefs and rumors about the practice of those beliefs rather than probable cause.

It may well be that a hoax provided the probable cause to enter the ranch to begin with. However, once in the ranch they saw all these pregnant teenagers, and knowing (through informants and whatnot) that it was the practice to fake-marry off teenage girls to older men as baby factories, they had probable cause to act that was entirely separate from the hoax that started it all.

Or are you arguing that, once they determined that the original probable cause might have been a hoax, they should just ignore the pregnant young teenaged girls?

"Oops, we may have all these pregnant young teenaged girls walking around, apparently the "wives" of older men here on the ranch, but Rozita Swinton perpetrated a hoax, so let's pack it up and leave." Is that what you want?

[_Alter Idem]

They are unrelated. How is that confusing to you?

Oh come now.

How much MORE related can these groups be?

They may not be one and the same but related? ABSOLUTELY!

Same father, which makes them siblings. ;-)

Same founder, same scriptures, (with an exception or two) same beliefs, same history for the first eighty or so years... the FLDS believe the LDS church is the apostate, the LDS church believes it is the FLDS.

Yes these two groups are related.

~dancer~

Some of these assumptions were correct...for a while during the early days of their group. However, the FLDS church has been moving away from LDS beliefs for the past 80 years and if you look at Warren Jeffs' influence, you'll see that they have totally broken with Mormonism. All they now share in common is the founder and the scriptures (which many of them are too functionally illiterate to read).

I think a lot of the LDS over at MADB are unaware of how truly frightening Warren Jeffs has made his religion. They have no idea of the sanctioned abuse and control that Jeffs has promoted within the group. They keep thinking of the way FLDS were post Rulon and Warren Jeffs.

The group at YFZ is unique. They are the members of the FLDS who swallowed all of Warren Jeff's pronouncements. They are his completely devoted followers.

Warren Jeffs told all parents to pull their children out of school. Then he closed the private religious school he had ordered they attend. Now they are all homeschooling their children...but most of the adults don't have the education to homeschool. He also had the library closed and all the books burned. He demanded the all the people stop watching TV, listening to radio or using the internet (except for business purposes) or watching even movies on video or DVD.

Some FLDS had been allowed to go on to college..not anymore. Warren, speaking for his father Rulon, stopped that. No one is allowed to get higher education.

Warren Jeffs had all the dogs in Colorado city killed. He said that a people who were humane to their animals were of the devil. He's been accused of having animals tortured to death in front of children.

Warren Jeffs changed the rules for polygamous husbands. He took some his father's wives(the young pretty ones) as his wives--something that had been forbidden by all other leaders. He also told men that they no longer had to treat all their wives equally. If a man chose to favor one wife over the others, it was god's will and the others wives were not worthy. This is one way he took away what little power the women enjoyed. Before, men who showed favoratism to a wife were looked down on as not doing their priesthood duty and this gave other wives more protection from an angry husband. He also took away women's freedom by saying that they could no longer travel outside their homes without a man present. Shades of the Taliban.

There's lots more. I'm sure the authorities are fully aware of all these new teachings Warren Jeffs has added. He has essentially enslaved this people, the men believe that they can't enter heaven without Warren's approval and the women can't enter heaven without their husband's approval.

Whatever some of you think about the LDS religion, I think you can see that Jeffs' FLDS are nothing like modern LDS.

[_truth dancer]

Hi A.I....

First, you are preaching to the choir... (smile). I think most of us here are pretty clear on what sorts of abuse are going on in the FLDS community.

I wrote,

Same father, which makes them siblings. ;-)

Same founder, same scriptures, (with an exception or two) same beliefs, same history for the first eighty or so years... the FLDS believe the LDS church is the apostate, the LDS church believes it is the FLDS.

Yes these two groups are related.

To which you responded,

Some of these assumptions were correct...

Which of my above "assumptions" are false?

I don't think anyone is suggesting the LDS church TODAY, is the same as the FLDS church. In fact I think I made it clear it is not. However, to state that the FLDS and LDS are "unrelated" is disingenuous.

Again, the FLDS believe it is the LDS who have left the true teachings of Joseph Smith while the LDS claim they are the one and only true church.

I don't know how either could change the others' testimonies or prove they are the true church... both groups have received their witness, have strong witnesses of their prophet, and believe the Book of Mormon and the promise contained therein.

~dancer~

[_bcspace]

Yup. And the FDLDS probably don't think you are a real Mormon either.

Sure. So?

Do you think they are Christians, though?

According to the definition, probably.

[_beastie]

No matter if FLDS has evolved in a different direction than the LDS did, the apologetics used to defend past LDS polygamy can be used to defend FLDS polygamy. in my opinion, that is the core problem that has resulted in the defense of FLDS we see at MAD.

[_Jersey Girl]

Alter,

I didn't read the replies following these comments of yours so if someone else has replied in a similar way feel free to ignore this.

I don't know about criticizing them for answering "I don't know"...they are being very careful because what they say can be used against them and against their loved ones and family members. Yes, they do practice deception--after all, polygamy is illegal and can bring a lot of trouble on them if others find out they are practicing it, but let's remember that plenty of people would not be forthcoming on a witness stand if they knew the information was damaging.

When I asked about arresting/prosecuting the FLDS on polygamy law in another thread, the posters pointed out to me that they cannot be arrested/prosecuted on that count.

When you said "and can bring a lot of trouble on them if others find out they are practicing it" my ears (eyes) perked up. The community surrounding YFZ ranch, at least, knows and has known that polygamy is being practiced there and that includes the Texas authorities. They knew when the land was purchased (if memory serves me right) that the land owners were tied to a polygamist group.