MAD thread -- A Question For Atheists

[_antishock8]

I'm not sure what meaning one could derive being born into a family from Darfur as a little girl who is raped by Arabs in front of her family, and then subsequently having her arms chopped off with machetes as a reminder of her subordinate status as a pagan or Christian.

Isn't it wonderful? Isn't it marvelous?

Contrast that against the meaning one could derive from being born into a WASP family, suburban California, graduating from UC San Diego in Marine Biology, and then marrying a wealthy businessman. You live in relative comfort as the world spins around.

Isn't it wonderful? Isn't it marvelous?

I mean... They got to CHOOOOOOOOSE their lot in life. Isn't it WONDERFUL?? That little girl that had to suck UN Peacekeeper cock in order to get bread, or be raped by a gaggle of Pakistani UN Peacekeepers in a field... She CHOOOOOOSE that experience.

I had a friend grow up in Barbados. She was raped daily by her uncle for 7 years. She CHOOOOOSE that experience.

Isn't it wonderful? Isn't it MARVELOUS???

Mormons are myopic assholes. It's just sickening how they can throw around their platitudes without nary a thought for the REALITY on the ground.

[_Moniker]

This is what sent me into a tizzy this morning:

Stargazer:

I think that the matter of helping people finding their car keys should not be underrated. Perhaps it would be more dramatic if God were to save the lives of every miner that gets trapped in a collapse by some obviously supernatural method; the miners would certainly appreciate this. But in preventing their deaths by such obvious action He would be undermining their agency in belief, and if they then refused to believe afterwards they would reap even greater condemnation, since to deny in the face of proof is a hallmark of the Sons of Perdition.

But to help someone who already believes to find their car keys does not undermine their agency, it enhances it and rewards their faith, leading them gently in His direction.

I just can make no sense of this! Is he assuming that miners do not have belief by his second statement by those that have their car keys found are not having their agency undermined? Is it ignoring that there are not COUNTLESS voices that wail for God in each nook and cranny of our world? Or is it that God is more concerned with his children that DO believe and that he should play a special game with all of us so that even those that do believe should not be interfered with 'cause, well, then, we might lose belief and God would rather have us believing and dead then living without belief?

What?

WHAT?

WHAT???

Maybe I just don't understand free agency and what believers mean by this. Or maybe this won't make sense to me because there's no sense to it.

[_Moniker]

Oh! I have a suggestion!

Those that get God to routinely find their car keys for them could forgo that blessing (which evidently somehow or another does not interfere with their free agency) and send God on errands for others that need to find food and medicine! Wala!

How 'bout it?

[_Bond...James Bond]

Oh! I have a suggestion!

Those that get God to routinely find their car keys for them could forgo that blessing (which evidently somehow or another does not interfere with their free agency) and send God on errands for others that need to find food and medicine! Wala!

How 'bout it?

God is more interested in finding car keys. He's like a goldfish, attracted to sparkly metallic objects.

[_The Dude]

So God's agency is limited from helping trapped miners because our agency could potentially be infringed by viewing such a miracle?

Oh yeah, it's modeled after the "prime directive" of Star Trek: no advanced civilization may give technological aid to a pre-warp drive civilization, as this would interfere with their natural development (or destruction). This rule helps maintain dramatic tension and avoids short-circuiting the various plots with predictable deux ex machina. No wonder Stargazer's explanation sounds more like a literary device than a principle of divine ethics.

But finding car keys is okay -- it's the magical amount of intervention.

Riiiight.

[_Chap]

I'm not sure what meaning one could derive being born into a family from Darfur as a little girl who is raped by Arabs in front of her family, and then subsequently having her arms chopped off with machetes as a reminder of her subordinate status as a pagan or Christian.

Isn't it wonderful? Isn't it marvelous?

Contrast that against the meaning one could derive from being born into a WASP family, suburban California, graduating from UC San Diego in Marine Biology, and then marrying a wealthy businessman. You live in relative comfort as the world spins around.

Isn't it wonderful? Isn't it marvelous?

I mean... They got to CHOOOOOOOOSE their lot in life. Isn't it WONDERFUL?? That little girl that had to suck UN Peacekeeper cock in order to get bread, or be raped by a gaggle of Pakistani UN Peacekeepers in a field... She CHOOOOOOSE that experience.

I had a friend grow up in Barbados. She was raped daily by her uncle for 7 years. She CHOOOOOSE that experience.

Isn't it wonderful? Isn't it MARVELOUS???

Mormons are myopic assholes. It's just sickening how they can throw around their platitudes without nary a thought for the REALITY on the ground.

The horrifying thing is that I have seen TBM posters actually say that the answer to apparent innocent suffering is INDEED that the individual made a choice in the pre-existence to be liable to such suffering, and so you can't blame God for letting it happen.

Any mind that can seriously think through the consequences of that position, as antishock has, and yet not recoil from it in shuddering disgust is ... well, shall we say just a little out of kilter.

[_Moniker]

So God's agency is limited from helping trapped miners because our agency could potentially be infringed by viewing such a miracle?

Oh yeah, it's modeled after the "prime directive" of Star Trek: no advanced civilization may give technological aid to a pre-warp drive civilization, as this would interfere with their natural development (or destruction). This rule helps maintain dramatic tension and avoids short-circuiting the various plots with predictable deux ex machina. No wonder Stargazer's explanation sounds more like a literary device than a principle of divine ethics.

But finding car keys is okay -- it's the magical amount of intervention.

Riiiight.

I think these things don't work for me 'cause I was never an avid sci-fi watcher and snickered at D&D players (some of which were boyfriends)! I just always sat off to the side with quiet bemusement with a "huh" on my face and with one brow cocked. I soooo don't have the imagination to get this stuff to work! Phooey!

If someone could tie this into Miss Haversham, Billy Pilgrim, or Heathcliff I'd be good to go!

[Guest]

The horrifying thing is that I have seen TBM posters actually say that the answer to apparent innocent suffering is INDEED that the individual made a choice in the pre-existence to be liable to such suffering, and so you can't blame God for letting it happen.

Any mind that can seriously think through the consequences of that position, as antishock has, and yet not recoil from it in shuddering disgust is ... well, shall we say just a little out of kilter.

Nooooo!!!! No friggin' way! Well, I knew that the pre-existence had something to do with skin color for those that were LDS. Yet, I didn't recognize that we chose our lot in life by the pre-existence.

Sheesh, the implications of this are actually terrifying to ponder. Does this lessen the likelihood that those suffering are seen as deserving help? They chose their lot in life so leave them be? This can't be so??? Surely not. Doesn't the LDS Church do lots of charity? How can you reconcile Christ asking his followers to help the downtrodden and then juxtapose that against a belief system that says people chose their lot in life?

~~Edited 'cause I typed LSD instead of LDS -- I also spelled Auschwitz incorrectly... oh, well~~

[_Doctor Steuss]

Small, inconsequential (and most likely irrational) pet-peeve:

“Pre-existence” is a misnomer.

[_Moniker]

Small, inconsequential (and most likely irrational) pet-peeve:

“Pre-existence” is a misnomer.

Can you elaborate? You know I'm not familiar with a lot of these terms.