mbeesley wrote:These kinds of threads always crack me up. Some silly, mocking assertion is made about Mormons, and the anti-Mormons all get together for a circle jerk. How wonderfully mature and productive (like this post)! ROFLMAO
I'm not the one that says finding car keys doesn't interfere with free agency and that this is acceptable to God whereas helping people in burning buildings or collapsed mines is not on God's agenda.
I was mocking this God that apparently is only capable of intervening to find lost car keys. He is deserving of my mockery -- no religion involved.
Helping to find car keys interferes with Agency? I think you're thinking of something more like the Prime Directive which God never adhered to.
If God can swoop down in all his mightiness and help his children find car keys so they can run errands why in the world can this God not swoop down and help a drowning babe, a woman being raped, someone trapped in a burning building, etc...
Why doesn't it interfere with agency? I don't really understand what in the world people mean by agency, yet, if someone loses their car keys why in the world does this become a numero uno issue with the All Mighty? Can't God swoop down and help people in other manners? Someone lost their child in the shopping mall -- come on God -- get down here and help the Mommy find that tot before the child predator swoops her up! A lil boy is lost and wandering the streets -- God can't help the police locate him before someone nabs him? A lonely boyscout lost in the woods and about to freeze to death -- get on it God! Help the rescuers find him.... yet, of course God is too busy retrieving car keys.
Nehor this is from MAD and what started me down the path of mocking God yesterday...
I think that the matter of helping people finding their car keys should not be underrated. Perhaps it would be more dramatic if God were to save the lives of every miner that gets trapped in a collapse by some obviously supernatural method; the miners would certainly appreciate this. But in preventing their deaths by such obvious action He would be undermining their agency in belief, and if they then refused to believe afterwards they would reap even greater condemnation, since to deny in the face of proof is a hallmark of the Sons of Perdition.
But to help someone who already believes to find their car keys does not undermine their agency, it enhances it and rewards their faith, leading them gently in His direction.
Moniker wrote:If God can swoop down in all his mightiness and help his children find car keys so they can run errands why in the world can this God not swoop down and help a drowning babe, a woman being raped, someone trapped in a burning building, etc...
Why doesn't it interfere with agency? I don't really understand what in the world people mean by agency, yet, if someone loses their car keys why in the world does this become a numero uno issue with the All Mighty? Can't God swoop down and help people in other manners? Someone lost their child in the shopping mall -- come on God -- get down here and help the Mommy find that tot before the child predator swoops her up! A lil boy is lost and wandering the streets -- God can't help the police locate him before someone nabs him? A lonely boyscout lost in the woods and about to freeze to death -- get on it God! Help the rescuers find him.... yet, of course God is too busy retrieving car keys.
Praise be to God!
Agency is the power to make choices. It is essentially free will.
God is also not too busy retrieving car keys. God is omnipotent. He could save all of the above simultaneously and have every key ever made be found simultaneously as well. Why does God choose to sometimes intervene and sometimes not? I can't do a case by case. God is omniscient and knows better then me what can and must be done. If I lost my keys tomorrow and never found them again my faith would be in no way shaken.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote: Agency is the power to make choices. It is essentially free will.
That's what I thought. So, if someone loses their car keys and God helps them find them this is not interfering with free will? Good! Then the All Mighty can swoop down and find lost children, too! Woop! Everyone start a petition to God to help him figure this one out.
God is also not too busy retrieving car keys. God is omnipotent. He could save all of the above simultaneously and have every key ever made be found simultaneously as well. Why does God choose to sometimes intervene and sometimes not? I can't do a case by case. God is omniscient and knows better then me what can and must be done. If I lost my keys tomorrow and never found them again my faith would be in no way shaken.
Nehor, I understand you have faith, and understand that it's important in your life. I just can not choose to believe in a God that would be praised for finding kitties, car keys, and the like while his children (made in his image) wail for him in all parts of this world and are ignored by Him. This is no God I will praise or believe in. If I did believe in him I'd curse him -- for real -- not in a mocking manner. He can smote me at anytime.
In my reality I'm usually too busy running around looking for my keys [and some socks] to take time to pray. Even if I did pray I'd probably piss off God because of all the S-Bombs coming forth as I look for my keys. So I usually end up retracing my steps. Logic works much better than prayer in most cases.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
Bond...James Bond wrote:In my reality I'm usually too busy running around looking for my keys [and some socks] to take time to pray. Even if I did pray I'd probably piss off God because of all the S-Bombs coming forth as I look for my keys. So I usually end up retracing my steps. Logic works much better than prayer in most cases.
You just think it's logic. It's really god's promptings, didn't you know?
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)
Moniker wrote:Nehor this is from MAD and what started me down the path of mocking God yesterday...
I think that the matter of helping people finding their car keys should not be underrated. Perhaps it would be more dramatic if God were to save the lives of every miner that gets trapped in a collapse by some obviously supernatural method; the miners would certainly appreciate this. But in preventing their deaths by such obvious action He would be undermining their agency in belief, and if they then refused to believe afterwards they would reap even greater condemnation, since to deny in the face of proof is a hallmark of the Sons of Perdition.
But to help someone who already believes to find their car keys does not undermine their agency, it enhances it and rewards their faith, leading them gently in His direction.
This person is wrong. It is not a violation of someone's agency to help them.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Moniker wrote:Nehor, I understand you have faith, and understand that it's important in your life. I just can not choose to believe in a God that would be praised for finding kitties, car keys, and the like while his children (made in his image) wail for him in all parts of this world and are ignored by Him. This is no God I will praise or believe in. If I did believe in him I'd curse him -- for real -- not in a mocking manner. He can smote me at anytime.
Problem here.....most of them are not wailing for him. Many are wailing at him but that's not the same thing. I've done both. One I get helped with. The other I get nothing or (rarely) smitten.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Moniker wrote:Nehor, I understand you have faith, and understand that it's important in your life. I just can not choose to believe in a God that would be praised for finding kitties, car keys, and the like while his children (made in his image) wail for him in all parts of this world and are ignored by Him. This is no God I will praise or believe in. If I did believe in him I'd curse him -- for real -- not in a mocking manner. He can smote me at anytime.
Problem here.....most of them are not wailing for him. Many are wailing at him but that's not the same thing. I've done both. One I get helped with. The other I get nothing or (rarely) smitten.
Well, I think it's not in doubt that people routinely plead with God to help them. Anyway, it's nice to see you back, Nehor. I missed you.