Sethbag banned at MAD

[_Scottie]

Yeah, I see this too, Beastie.

Critics are welcome to come and debate, as long as our ground rules are followed. The ground rules essentially hobble the critic, so the apologists can look like they are winning.

[_BishopRic]

Yeah, I see this too, Beastie.

Critics are welcome to come and debate, as long as our ground rules are followed. The ground rules essentially hobble the critic, so the apologists can look like they are winning.

So true. I've been on many message boards, and I've never seen such vitriol and personal attacks as what comes from the like of Selek, Pahoran et al. It makes me chuckle a bit, because they supposedly are defending the church that claims to be the one true church that teaches the gospel of love...

With "love" like that, who needs enemies?!

[_Alter Idem]

I think they want to just talk between themselves and have gentle and fulfilling discussions with non-members/non-critics who show up. I'm not trying to be smart there - I honestly think that. And if so, well, that's their right.

Is there something wrong with wanting to have a Board that does that? Does EVERY LDS discussion board have to tolerate blatant anti-Mormon rhetoric in order to earn the MDB seal of approval?

At some point, LDS posters just get tired of responding to the same old tired rants and they want a place where they can have gentle and fulfilling discussions without wading through a lot of crap. MA&D fulfills that need. And there is nothing wrong with that.

But that isn't what MAD claims to be. They claim to welcome critics, so long as they are respectful.

Right, I think that's what I basically said.

I don't know why they can't say the same for TBM's. The respect should go both ways.

Yes, it should. And in my experience LDS posters become disrepectful because they get impatient of responding to tired, old arguments and wading through the crap. Where the discussion is gentle and fufilling, you see no disrespect.

Sorry, but not this is a cop-out for bad behaviour. I've seen too many of my fellow TBM's use this lame excuse for being rude, overbearing, and obnoxious...and since I know they get the same lessons in Sunday School and Sacrament Meeting as I do, they know better.

The TBM's at MADB need to police themselves--because they are allowed more freedom to choose how they want to interact.

[_Yoda]

Careful, Alter Idem. You're starting to sound more and more like "one of us". The MAD'ites are going to accuse you of converting to the Dark Side. LOL

You're a sweetheart, by the way. :)

[_Alter Idem]

Also, thanks to LifeOnAPlate for sticking up for me over there after the banning. To my knowledge, he's the first and probably the only one to do so thus far, though I may have just missed seeing it if someone else did to. I appreciate it.

edit: Mike Reed, not a TBM, also spoke up - thanks Mike!

I've been banned too.

You said you were leaving voluntarily.

Right. But they didn't just let me walk away. They banned me and locked my account, preventing me from being able to access it in the future.

Mike, I'm so sorry someone did that. Would it have been so wrong to have allowed you to just leave the board for a while? It seems some can't bear any criticism without overreacting.

[Guest]

Careful, Alter Idem. You're starting to sound more and more like "one of us". The MAD'ites are going to accuse you of converting to the Dark Side. LOL

You're a sweetheart, by the way. :)

The "one of us" hopefully refers to a very narrow subset of posters here. She sounds nothing like the majority of people currently populating the board (including some of our more recent visitors from MAD).

I do believe that she represents a very reasonable voice on both boards.

edit: The first paragraph may have come across a bit harsher than intended. Nonetheless, I believe that for many people, it may not be entirely complimentary to lump them in with many of the denizens of this board.

[_Sethbag]

Thanks Alter Idem, and I agree you are a very nice and courteous voice wherever you post.

I doubt I'll get reinstated, but who knows. It's not like I've been a very active poster there for a while now, but it is sad to see it come down to this.

And I 100% agree with Beastie. The MADites want what they MADites cannot, and will not ever get, because the LDS Church is simply not true. It's a manmade institution, created by Joseph Smith and others, and perpetuated by people today because the memes of Mormonism, to use a Dawkinsism, are good at getting themselves replicated. There is no God. There is no Lord. These are figments of our imaginations. God, the Lord, Jesus, etc. are successful memes which have been good at getting themselves spread, and good at getting themselves replicated.

And it becomes ever clearer that this is the case. 300 years ago, when people like Isaac Newton were strong theists, they really didn't have much of a chance, or a choice, given the cultural milieu and what they could know about the universe and the world. 150 years ago it was growing ever more easily not to believe in God, yet most still did. Today, one either has to just give themselves over wholesale to ridiculous beliefs like Young Earth Creationism and Biblical literalism, like some fundie Evangelicals and others, or one has to eviscerate one's own scriptures and beliefs and start relegating much of it to the dustbin of history. Thus we have people like BCSpace who continue to believe that the church is "true", and yet have all but abandoned whole swaths of traditional teaching and doctrine.

The defense of the LDS Church is a losing proposition to the outside world. It's game, set, and match in terms of being able to counter critical arguments and historical analysis of the LDS Church with LDS apologetics, and actually end up with the outsiders believing the church is true. LDS Apologetics is all just about giving the already-faithful something to point to when the bad news comes in, to help keep up the faith.

LDS can "win" against EV anti-mormons because with the EVs it all comes down to interpretation of scripture and arguments over doctrine. Mormonism has built up a comprehensive theology that can defend itself quite well against such arguments, as all those of us who ever "bashed" on our missions and thought we came out ahead will agree with. Of course, the EVs also have their theology well set up and defensible in their minds.

But they cannot win using apologetic arguments against the secularists. There's simply no evidence that the LDS cosmology and belief in God is true, and plenty of evidence suggesting, if not (always) outright proving, that it's not. The cases against the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, Joseph's "revelations" regarding polygamy, etc. are just too strong to almost anyone not already mentally committed to an LDS testimony.

Being an LDS apologist has got to be one of the most frustrating things in the world, and I don't mean because of the repetition of arguments. They're defending the indefensible, and that has just got to wear on their souls.

[_beastie]

Well said, seth.

Not only does it wear on their souls, but it wears on their egos. Some of these folks are very smart people, and it "smarts" to consistently lose these arguments. I believe that deep down, the smartest among them know they're losing. Sure, they may reassure themselves that one day, evidence will appear that will vindicate them and THEN it will all be fabulous, but right now, with what they've got, they're losing. So it wears on their egos, and I think that is part of the problem. So many of them have this huge chip on their shoulders, which is why I think several obsess about degrees. And that huge chip is definitely part of the problem. People who have huge chips on their shoulders tend to be very easily offended and aggressive when offense is perceived.

[_Trevor]

it wears on their egos.

I think that about covers it.

[_harmony]

Careful, Alter Idem. You're starting to sound more and more like "one of us". The MAD'ites are going to accuse you of converting to the Dark Side. LOL

You're a sweetheart, by the way. :)

The "one of us" hopefully refers to a very narrow subset of posters here. She sounds nothing like the majority of people currently populating the board (including some of our more recent visitors from MAD).

I do believe that she represents a very reasonable voice on both boards.

edit: The first paragraph may have come across a bit harsher than intended. Nonetheless, I believe that for many people, it may not be entirely complimentary to lump them in with many of the denizens of this board.

As "one of us", as in one of the "denizens of this board", I'd like to know exactly how one goes about being lumped with aforementioned denizens, and why that's such a bad thing?