Is Smith's polygamy the Achilles' heel of Mormonism?

[_Scottie]

How so??

For starters, if the claim is that you can't get to heaven without Joseph Smith's permission, then you must admit that you can't get to heaven without any of the saints' permission according to the Bible

Ok...does LDS theology adhere to this claim? I have never heard that it does.

It does seem to adhere to the belief that Joseph Smith will be sitting on the right hand of Jesus, and that he will be judging us right along with the Godhead.

Not to mention the "No man has done more save Jesus". This would seem to place him on a higher level than the average prophet.

[_The Nehor]

This is something I was thinking about the other day.

The common argument is that prophets are men first and prophets second. And that to expect them to be perfect is unjustified, because they are imperfect men.

Therefore, as the argument goes, Joseph Smith could have instituted polygamy as an imperfect man, but the church could still be true.

Now, the flip side of this is that Joseph Smith didn't just paint himself to be "another prophet". He was some kind of uber prophet. He will be sitting on the right hand of Christ, and we can't get into Heaven without his say-so. His post mortem self is already at a level of deity, far above any of the other prophets. So, yes, I say it is fair that we judge his actions more harshly than that of other prophets.

Joseph didn't paint himself that way. Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff did. Especially Brigham.

[_Scottie]

This is something I was thinking about the other day.

The common argument is that prophets are men first and prophets second. And that to expect them to be perfect is unjustified, because they are imperfect men.

Therefore, as the argument goes, Joseph Smith could have instituted polygamy as an imperfect man, but the church could still be true.

Now, the flip side of this is that Joseph Smith didn't just paint himself to be "another prophet". He was some kind of uber prophet. He will be sitting on the right hand of Christ, and we can't get into Heaven without his say-so. His post mortem self is already at a level of deity, far above any of the other prophets. So, yes, I say it is fair that we judge his actions more harshly than that of other prophets.

Joseph didn't paint himself that way. Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff did. Especially Brigham.

Painted themselves that way, or Joseph that way?

[_moksha]

Since it's God-authorized practice is found in the Bible, the LDS Church, or any other Christian church, cannot be true without such a doctrine.

Many sultans have embraced this doctrine.

[_The Nehor]

This is something I was thinking about the other day.

The common argument is that prophets are men first and prophets second. And that to expect them to be perfect is unjustified, because they are imperfect men.

Therefore, as the argument goes, Joseph Smith could have instituted polygamy as an imperfect man, but the church could still be true.

Now, the flip side of this is that Joseph Smith didn't just paint himself to be "another prophet". He was some kind of uber prophet. He will be sitting on the right hand of Christ, and we can't get into Heaven without his say-so. His post mortem self is already at a level of deity, far above any of the other prophets. So, yes, I say it is fair that we judge his actions more harshly than that of other prophets.

Joseph didn't paint himself that way. Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff did. Especially Brigham.

Painted themselves that way, or Joseph that way?

Painted Joseph that way. Brigham Young started the idea that Joseph would be a judge at the Last Day (unless he is referring to preliminary judgment this contradicts scripture) and John Taylor was the one who claimed Joseph did more for the salvation of man then any other except Jesus (a dubious claim, I suspect Adam might be a more likely candidate for that position).

[_Scottie]

Joseph didn't paint himself that way. Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff did. Especially Brigham.

Painted themselves that way, or Joseph that way?

Painted Joseph that way. Brigham Young started the idea that Joseph would be a judge at the Last Day (unless he is referring to preliminary judgment this contradicts scripture) and John Taylor was the one who claimed Joseph did more for the salvation of man then any other except Jesus (a dubious claim, I suspect Adam might be a more likely candidate for that position).

Thanks for the clarifications.

So, my next question...

Regardless of who made the claim, would you say it is LDS doctrine that Joseph Smith will be on the right hand of Jesus and will be instrumental in our judgement? Or do you believe these prophets were speaking as men when they said this?

[_The Nehor]

Joseph didn't paint himself that way. Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff did. Especially Brigham.

Painted themselves that way, or Joseph that way?

Painted Joseph that way. Brigham Young started the idea that Joseph would be a judge at the Last Day (unless he is referring to preliminary judgment this contradicts scripture) and John Taylor was the one who claimed Joseph did more for the salvation of man then any other except Jesus (a dubious claim, I suspect Adam might be a more likely candidate for that position).

Thanks for the clarifications.

So, my next question...

Regardless of who made the claim, would you say it is LDS doctrine that Joseph Smith will be on the right hand of Jesus and will be instrumental in our judgement? Or do you believe these prophets were speaking as men when they said this?

I don't know how the judgment will play out but if they do have a judging role it is a minor one. The Book of Mormon states clearly that Christ controls the gates of heaven and who enters and that he employs no servants there. There might be preliminary judgments or something in that regard. I don't know whether they'll judge us at all. I suspect not but I don't care either way really. I do know that when I'm on my knees pleading for mercy I'm not talking to Joseph.

[_RockHeaded]

bcspace, this all seems contradictory because Jacob 2 say's this:

You need to read all the way to verse 30.

There is not one part of Jacob 2 which okays polygamy, in fact is condemns it.

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.


God is saying that IF they commit whoredoms (have more than one wife/polygamy) their land will be cursed. He (God) will command His people to raise up righteous seed, otherwise they will commit these whoredoms (polygamy). He will curse them if they commit these whoredoms. This does not lagitamize polygamy it is opposit of that. If the 'righteous seed' part is lagitamizing polygamy then Jacob 2 contradicts itself because God said that no man will have more than one wife (that is very clear).


RockHeaded

[_Boaz & Lidia]

bcspace, this all seems contradictory because Jacob 2 say's this:

You need to read all the way to verse 30.

There is not one part of Jacob 2 which okays polygamy, in fact is condemns it.

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.


God is saying that IF they commit whoredoms (have more than one wife/polygamy) their land will be cursed. He (God) will command His people to raise up righteous seed, otherwise they will commit these whoredoms (polygamy). He will curse them if they commit these whoredoms. This does not lagitamize polygamy it is opposit of that. If the 'righteous seed' part is lagitamizing polygamy then Jacob 2 contradicts itself because God said that no man will have more than one wife (that is very clear).


RockHeaded

The Book of Mormon was published in 1830, then in 1831 God told Joe it was OK to cheat on his wife and doink the MiaMaids and Laurels, then in 1835 God gives Joe the following and cannonizes it:

"Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again." (1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants, section 101, verse 4)

Was God confused??? Or just stoned from snorting too much stardust?

[_Mercury]

Was God confused??? Or just stoned from snorting too much stardust?

Here is a picture of Kolob Gold, a brand of Kolobian Hydroponic sensimilla:



It is grown in a Greenhouse attached to the starbase Kolob. Its what is smoked in the Holy of Holies every saturday evening at midnight.