Sethbag banned at MAD

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_Gadianton
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Post by _Gadianton »

can't see any mention of why he was banned, and none of his posts looked ban-worthy.


Didn't he clearly win all his arguments with apologists? That sounds ban-worthy to me at a place like FAIR/MAD. I can understand them, they are tired of being beaten so badly, who can blame them for exclaiming, "enough is enough!"
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

What makes you think any of the apologists think they have lost ANY argument???

Even when hard data basically proves your point, they can always fall back to "the spirit told me it was true, so none of this matters." In the apologists mind, they have just won the argument and they can't see how you don't see it!


First, I only think the brighter and more well-informed apologists realize they're losing arguments. Do you really think that Brant Gardner, for example, feels that he's won any argument regarding the horse? Do you think he feels like he's "winning" when he is in such a corner he has to come up with arguments even HE later regrets (like the "horse and chariot" just meant the leader and his spiritual animal companion going into battle...that has to go down in history as one of THE most embarrassing arguments ever).

Realizing you've lost a particular argument is different than thinking you're wrong about the issue. Of course they still believe they're right in the larger argument (because of their testimonies), and eventually evidence will bear them out. But in the meantime... they're losing many arguments, and they're losing badly, in my opinion. Sure, they often act like it's OBVIOUS they're winning, but I think that's a ploy to pacify the unwashed, believing masses who want their faith to be reassured.

The reason I think this is likely is partly due to something I once read about Hugh Nibley (and can no longer remember where I read it). When the Book of Abraham papyri first came out and were translated (for real) and found to be typical funerary documents, the apologists were caught flat-footed. Nibley later admitted this, and admitted that he dealt with it by throwing everything and anything at the wall and seeing what would stick, so to speak. But his later comments made it obvious that he realized what he was throwing at the wall wasn't particularly a strong rebuttal or defense, he was just buying time until they figured it out. I think a version of that often goes on at MAD. Yeah, they believe that, one longed-for day, the evidence will support their fairy tales, but in the meantime, they throw anything and everything at the wall and hope something sticks. Sadly, this is enough to pacify many believers who don't really care about the strength or quality of the defenses, they just want to be told that really smart people believe what they believe, so they don't have to worry about it.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_why me
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Post by _why me »

Sethbag was banned because he has become a broken record with his attitude toward the LDS church. I do believe that he has also been disrespectful toward the LDS church, its history, and its beliefs. Everyone knows that seth does not like Mormonism and leans towards a christopher hitchens atheism. His attitude toward Mormonism is quite contrarian. Hence after hundreds or thousands of such posts on MAD he was banned.

Such is my perspective.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Post by _why me »

beastie wrote:
First, I only think the brighter and more well-informed apologists realize they're losing arguments. Do you really think that Brant Gardner, for example, feels that he's won any argument regarding the horse? Do you think he feels like he's "winning" when he is in such a corner he has to come up with arguments even HE later regrets (like the "horse and chariot" just meant the leader and his spiritual animal companion going into battle...that has to go down in history as one of THE most embarrassing arguments ever).

Realizing you've lost a particular argument is different than thinking you're wrong about the issue. Of course they still believe they're right in the larger argument (because of their testimonies), and eventually evidence will bear them out. But in the meantime... they're losing many arguments, and they're losing badly, in my opinion. Sure, they often act like it's OBVIOUS they're winning, but I think that's a ploy to pacify the unwashed, believing masses who want their faith to be reassured.



When people discuss religion, all sides basically lose since god can not be proved or disproved, and this goes for the LDS church also. Hence, the great debate over god and the LDS church will continue for eternities. No one loses and no one wins such arguments.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Post by _why me »

Gadianton wrote:
can't see any mention of why he was banned, and none of his posts looked ban-worthy.


Didn't he clearly win all his arguments with apologists? That sounds ban-worthy to me at a place like FAIR/MAD. I can understand them, they are tired of being beaten so badly, who can blame them for exclaiming, "enough is enough!"


No. It is not difficult to argue with believers of religion and put them on the defensive since god can not be proven. How to prove the Book of Mormon or the Bible? It is not possible. Religion is about faith and not evidence. In Mormonism, there is the Book of Mormon and the Joseph Smith story with witnesses. Prove them wrong and Mormonism is destroyed. Has seth done that? I don't think so.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

beastie wrote:The reason I think this is likely is partly due to something I once read about Hugh Nibley (and can no longer remember where I read it). When the Book of Abraham papyri first came out and were translated (for real) and found to be typical funerary documents, the apologists were caught flat-footed. Nibley later admitted this, and admitted that he dealt with it by throwing everything and anything at the wall and seeing what would stick, so to speak. But his later comments made it obvious that he realized what he was throwing at the wall wasn't particularly a strong rebuttal or defense, he was just buying time until they figured it out. I think a version of that often goes on at MAD. Yeah, they believe that, one longed-for day, the evidence will support their fairy tales, but in the meantime, they throw anything and everything at the wall and hope something sticks. Sadly, this is enough to pacify many believers who don't really care about the strength or quality of the defenses, they just want to be told that really smart people believe what they believe, so they don't have to worry about it.


The average member knows nothing of apologetics. When the whole Book of Abraham debacle hit the wall, everyone around me shrugged it off and went on with their lives, paid their tithing, fulfilled their callings. It wasn't even a bump in the road. Kinda puts the whole apologetic/MAD thing into perspective for me.
_Pa Pa
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Post by _Pa Pa »

KimberlyAnn wrote:It's definitely MAD's loss.

That board sucks
KA
Do you write your mother with that keyboard?
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

KimberlyAnn wrote:It's definitely MAD's loss.

That board sucks
KA


I can't tell if it sucks or blows or both. ;)

I just think it's an odd little place with its own weird and inconsistent rules. If you go in knowing that, it's not horrible.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Runtu wrote:
KimberlyAnn wrote:It's definitely MAD's loss.

That board sucks
KA


I can't tell if it sucks or blows or both. ;)

I just think it's an odd little place with its own weird and inconsistent rules. If you go in knowing that, it's not horrible.


Why bother, though?
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

liz3564 wrote:Why bother, though?


Well, some of us have in the past had a misguided belief that we might be a positive influence over there. I think I was wrong.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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