Critics ignore the real 800 pound Book of Abraham Gorilla in the room

[_Trevor]

I am still patiently waiting for the evidence you mentioned of a lively and growing academic debate concerning Joseph Smith's abilities interpreting Egyptian documents. Please post the bibliography so we can join you in acknowledging the fact that Mormon apologetics on the Book of Abraham are truly arriving in mainstream academic discourse.

[_dartagnan]

He's not coming.

He'll pretend he didn't see this thread like he always does.

[_Who Knows]

You'll be waiting a while. I'm still waiting for him to return to a thread from a while ago (see my sigline).

[_Trevor]

You'll be waiting a while. I'm still waiting for him to return to a thread from a while ago (see my sigline).

Well, unless he provides the evidence, I will conclude that he was blowing smoke. There is not, it seems, a lively and growing debate in the academic world about Joseph Smith's interpretations of Egyptian documents. Perhaps Will got a little overly excited, or maybe this is disingenuous Mopologetics rearing its ugly head again.

[_dartagnan]

Of course there isn't. The only thing coming close to that outside of BYU would include the departments at Brown and the U of Chicago. In both cases the "life" of the discourse sounds more like laughter than debate.

Will always makes stupid comments like these until we call his bluff, and then he runs away. I'm beginning to think that this is all that's left in Book of Abraham apologetics, just a big bluffing game.

[_Trevor]

Will always makes stupid comments like these until we call his bluff, and then he runs away. I'm beginning to think that this is all that's left in Book of Abraham apologetics, just a big bluffing game.

Can't say this does much for his general credibility.

[_dartagnan]

I don't think he cares. He knows people at MADB, for the most part anyway, won't ever find out about his numerous shenanigans on both boards. This is why they refuse to have an open dialogue with us over there. They don't want their own choir to realize just who is being deceptive.

Mormon thought operates on a set of premises and one of the most fundamental is that apostates are liars and deceivers. The members have the spirit, and would never do any of that stuff. This is the common denominator in all apologetic arguments: the anti has been trying to deceive intentionally! Will doesn't care what we think of him because he knows we're lost apostates anyway. It doesn't matter to him. Now the trick is for them to keep a wrap on all that has transpired over the past three years (Will's various lies, the MADB mods invading the realm of private messaging, the real reasons why some people are banned, etc)

[_Trevor]

Will doesn't care what we think of him because he knows we're lost apostates anyway. It doesn't matter to him. Now the trick is for them to keep a wrap on all that has transpired over the past three years (Will's various lies, the MADB mods invading the realm of private messaging, the real reasons why some people are banned, etc)

Lying for the Lord is alive and well. The shell game continues.

[_Wheat]

I am still patiently waiting for the evidence you mentioned of a lively and growing academic debate concerning Joseph Smith's abilities interpreting Egyptian documents. Please post the bibliography so we can join you in acknowledging the fact that Mormon apologetics on the Book of Abraham are truly arriving in mainstream academic discourse.

I have only been paying partial attention to the discussion, so I must have missed this. Where did he talk about an "academic debate concerning Joseph Smith's abilities interpreting Egyptian documents"?

[_Chap]

You'll be waiting a while. I'm still waiting for him to return to a thread from a while ago (see my sigline).

Your sigline is of course:

WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...

Schryver is unable to respond to this for the obvious reason that Joseph Smith's own writings contradict him and support Who Knows. The relevant text is the so-called 'Wentworth Letter'. See:

http://www.lightplanet.com/Mormons/peop ... etter.html

John Wentworth, editor of the Chicago Democrat, wrote Joseph Smith in 1842 to request information about the Church for a friend who was writing a history of New Hampshire. The "Wentworth Letter" was written by the Prophet Joseph Smith in response to this inquiry. The letter contains a brief History of the Church to 1842, including the key events in the restoration of the gospel. It states that the purpose of the Church is to take the gospel to every nation and prepare a people for the Millennium. The letter also describes concisely the origin, contents, and translation of the Book of Mormon. It concludes with thirteen doctrinal statements that have since become known as the Articles of Faith and are published in the Pearl of Great Price (HC 4:535-41). The contents of this letter were published March 1, 1842, in the Nauvoo Times and Seasons. There is no evidence that Wentworth or his friend, George Barstow, ever published it. In response to other inquiries in 1844, Joseph Smith sent revised copies of this letter to several publishers of works about various churches and religious groups.

In the letter, Joseph Smith tells us:

On the evening on the 21st of September, A.D. 1823, while I was praying unto God, and endeavoring to exercise faith in the precious promises of Scripture, on a sudden a light like that of day, only of a far purer and more glorious appearance and brightness, burst into the room, indeed the first sight was as though the house was filled with consuming fire; the appearance produced a shock that affected the whole body; in a moment a personage stood before me surrounded with a glory yet greater than that with which I was already surrounded. This messenger proclaimed himself to be an angel of God, sent to bring the joyful tidings that the covenant which God made with ancient Israel was at hand to be fulfilled, that the preparatory work for the second coming of the Messiah was speedily to commence; that the time was at hand for the Gospel in all its fullness to be preached in power, unto all nations that a people might be prepared for the Millennial reign. I was informed that I was chosen to be an instrument in the hands of God to bring about some of His purposes in this glorious dispensation.

I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people, was made known unto me; I was also told where were deposited some plates on which were engraven an abridgment of the records of the ancient Prophets that had existed on this continent.

So Smith tells us he was told about "the aboriginal inhabitants of this country" by an angel. This is not a matter of his interpretation of the Book of Mormon (which he had not yet seen), but a direct witness by him of having been told about the original inhabitants of the Americas by the most reliable possible witness.

In describing the contents of the Book of Mormon, he says:

In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian Era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites, and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country.

So the first settlers of America were the Jaredites. These were one of the "two distinct races of people" who inhabited the continent. The others were "principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph", who "succeeded them in the inheritance of the country". Nobody else around in this story at all.

And, of course,

The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country.

Not "The remnant are among the ancestors of the Indians that now inhabit this country". The remnant ARE the Indians.

Yup. Just as Who Knows said:

Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas.





And since Schryver is not the sort of person who ever admits he is just flat wrong, you will never get a response to your request. It's a bit like Coggins/Droopy and P*y L*y A*e.