truth dancer wrote:Hi A.I.,
~dancer~
Truth Dancer: I'm asking this in the spirit of learning not challenging K? :-)
I realize there are some differences in the FLDS and the LDS church... obviously polygamy for starters, but of the core doctrine what differences are there?
Alter Idem: I hope I don't come off as touchy--I don't mean to. I didn't feel that you were challenging, but I think our similarities with FLDS have little impact on Jeffs FLDS today.
I suspect that many of their doctrines are the same--three kingdoms (though they believe they MUST have three wives to enter the highest part of the celestial kingdom). Their belief in the atonement is different in that LDS believe that only blasphemy of the HG warrants a "second death" or is outside the atonement. Warren Jeffs tell his people that a woman who commits "adultery" (and his definition of adultery is very wierd) earns the second death that they can't be redeemed from. Also, refusing to obey the prophet can earn someone this second death. It's pretty clear from many of Warren's teachings that they do not understand the atonement as it is explained in the Book of Mormon. I suppose that Warren has told them he is teaching them "higher" doctrines so they are not in the Book of Mormon. I assume they believe in the three personages of the Godhead, though I know they believe in some form of Adam-God which LDS have rejected.
Truth Dancer: WoW? Temple rituals (although I'm assuming the FLDS stick to the original and unchanged ceremony restored by Joseph Smith)? What about the Articles of Faith? Do they believe the righteous followers of Joseph Smith will be Gods and Goddesses in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom where they will procreate for eternity? That they must follow the prophet? Obey leaders? Same baptism? Sacrament? Priesthood blessings? Ordinations of deacons, teachers, priests, elders? Same hymns (probably the original one)?
Alter Idem: They don't practice the word of wisdom--I know Jeffs' FLDS drink coffee and alcohol--don't know about cigarettes though--I've never seen an FLDS smoke--these may be frowned on.
They don't believe in the temple rituals anymore. When the sect first broke off from LDS, they did believe in the temple still. However, over the years, their leaders have told them that the temple rituals are corrupted and a waste of time so they don't use them. Warren Jeffs built his temple against the teachings of every other FLDS leader that they would not build a temple until Christ came. Therefore, I assume Jeffs made up his own temple rituals to go with his temple.
I don't know about the Articles of faith--I assume they accept many of them.
They believe that their prophet (in this case Warren Jeffs) will determine which men get to heaven and will become Gods and Goddesses. Women only get to heaven if their husband allows them to come with him. Women are at the mercy of their husband--this is definitely not a tenet of LDS belief. We don't believe the prophet "allows" us into heaven and husbands don't have power to keep a wife out of heaven or bring her along. I'm certain they believe that they will procreate for eternity. It's the whole foundation for their religion.
Warren Jeffs insists on absolute obedience from his followers. If they defy him they go to hell. While LDS believe in obeying leaders, we certainly don't think we are going to hell if we don't follow everything they say. That's because we don't believe we have to be perfect--we just need to be doing our best. And we know we won't always measure up--that's what the atonement is for.
I assume they baptize at eight and I assume they have the sacrament. I don't know about priesthood blessings or ordinations. I do know that a man can be stripped of his priesthood for no reason if Warren Jeffs decides he has sinned. He doesn't have to give any explanation--he tells them they have sinned and they must confess all their sins to him in a letter. Then he decides if they've been honest with him. We certainly don't allow our leaders that kind of power.
Yes, they use the old dark blue hymnbook--I assume they sing the same hymns that we do---and other protestants who sing those same hymns as well.
Other differences; They don't have a Prophet, counselors and Quorum of 12. They don't have Bishops or Stake Pres. They originally had a group of leaders called apostle high priests or something like that--I think it was seven men called the counsel of friends. But around the time of LeRoy Johnson, he and the Barlows seized power and the "one man rule" idea prevailed. The other leaders were kicked out (one started centenial park FLDS) and with Rulon Jeffs, the idea that the one man was a "prophet" became their doctrine. Also, they started with Uncle Roy's time that all marriages had to be arranged by the prophet--he received revelation of who a girl should marry.
They don't pay tithing. They live a form of the law of consecration, but they admit it is not the actual law of consecration--basically, they give the prophet all the money he asks for.
They do have patriarchs who give patriarchal blessings.
They don't believe in education--Warren Jeffs recently shut down all the private schools (after he told the people to pull their children out of public school). He also forbid them from getting any higher education. I guess he's ignoring counsel in the D&C again, since it doesn't fit into his "higher law" he's trying to get them to live.
Truth Dancer: My understanding is that the FLDS do not engage in missionary work, but I'm thinking it is more of a practice than a core doctrine?
Alter Idem: No, it's not just a practice. They originally did believe that they should go out quietly among the LDS people and teach them of their beliefs to get converts...but after a while, they stopped. They do not believe they need to teach anyone of their religion. They are the chosen people, no one else deserves to be taught. God sends only his most righteous spirits to them for birth and there is no need to waste their efforts on the rest of the people. They teach their children that we are all evil and the outside world is evil. It has become a basic part of their belief--that's why they separate themselves out from everyone else and tell their children not to have anything to do with the rest of us. Warren Jeffs has really emphasized that with his bans on TV, movies, radio, internet, etc. and putting the people into compounds where they are isolated from all outside contact.
As you can see, that is very different from LDS--It is one of our core doctrines that we must teach the world the gospel and help others to come to a knowledge of the Savior. We believe it is one of the three fold mission of the church: 1. Perfect the Saints, 2. Redeem the Dead and 3. Proclaim the Gospel.
Truth Dancer: Again, I realize the FLDS hold to many of the original teachings of the LDS church and consequently have diverged from the LDS church over the recent decades still, aside from a few non-doctrinal teachings and some everyday practices, what is really different in terms of core beliefs?
Alter Idem: I'd really say that it doesn't matter much even if many of their "doctrines" are the same or similar--I think you have to look at how those doctrines affect their mindset and their way of life. The ones we agree on--like singing "come come ye saints" , only means we both celebrate Pioneer day, but as they take it to the extreme to dress like Pioneers 24/7, we keep it to just talking about our pioneer heritage in lessons, etc. And yes, the kids go out on a Pioneer trek, but it's pretty benign compared to the hardships the pioneers suffered.
In truth, it is the areas where they have diverged that have had the most impact to mold them and identify them. I think that's why the similarities have little impact now.
Also, let me say that my comments above about the FLDS only pertain to Warren Jeffs FLDS group. Some of the other groups probably are a better comparison if you want to say LDS and FLDS are similar--especially the little independant groups which live among society and practice polygamy but adhere to LDS beliefs.
edited; sorry I messed up the quote feature--hope you can read this!