My guess is that Joseph instituted it as a general policy to avoid problems and Brigham Young in loyal zeal assumed it was revelation and kept it going.
Do you realize that you're implying that Brigham Young led the church astray?
I don't see how you can possibly come to that conclusion if BY simply continued a policy of Joseph Smith's.
The Nehor wrote:My guess is that Joseph instituted it as a general policy to avoid problems and Brigham Young in loyal zeal assumed it was revelation and kept it going.
Do you realize that you're implying that Brigham Young led the church astray?
I'm saying he may have made a mistake. Considering he founded a colony in the wilderness, built a stable and enduring society, and led it to prosper I think he can be forgiven for continuing something he thought came from God that probably had virtually no effect on the population he led (not a lot of blacks came to Utah).
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:I'm saying he may have made a mistake. Considering he founded a colony in the wilderness, built a stable and enduring society, and led it to prosper I think he can be forgiven for continuing something he thought came from God that probably had virtually no effect on the population he led (not a lot of blacks came to Utah).
He may have walked on water, but he was still leading the church astray.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"
The Nehor wrote:[...] Lorenzo Snow later said that he didn't know if the ban came by revelation or if it was policy. [...]
Wait a minute. You're saying that a 'Prophet of the Lord,' who supposedly held all those 'keys' on earth, didn't know whether something was a revelation?
Don't you see a bit of a problem with that?
.
"The DNA of fictional populations appears to be the most susceptible to extinction." - Simon Southerton
The Nehor wrote:[...] Lorenzo Snow later said that he didn't know if the ban came by revelation or if it was policy. [...]
Wait a minute. You're saying that a 'Prophet of the Lord,' who supposedly held all those 'keys' on earth, didn't know whether something was a revelation?
Don't you see a bit of a problem with that?
.
Nope. So many people outside the Church here seem to have higher expectations of the Prophet then those inside of it.
Don't you see a bit of a problem with that?
The Prophet of the Church has the keys of the Priesthood and is the Revelator for the Earth. He gets revelation as God directs. For the rest, he's like everyone else, working out his salvation. He does not automatically get every idle question he has answered nor does he consult with angelic beings eager to answer his every question on a weekly basis. When most members say that our leaders are human and fallible who have specific mantles of authority that is not just parrot talk. We believe it.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
So, instead of this, should the “Mormon Cult” be lamenting this anniversary? Should they be avoiding any publicity regarding the “revelation” in order to continue to keep young and new(er) members in the dark (no pun intended) that there was once a time when the “Mormon Cult” had a racist policy?
I’m not sure I understand why the “Mormon Cult” celebrating a moment when they did away with a racist policy is something to be looked down upon. Seems to me that it’s a good thing… but maybe that’s why it’s seen as bad.
Sometimes the world confuses me.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
The old man spouting 'racist garbage' was only stating what a First Presidency statement from 1949 called a doctrine of the church.
But I suppose your position is that the 'prophets, seers, and revelators' who authored the statement didn't know what LDS doctrine was.
August 17, 1949
The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: "Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to."
President Wilford Woodruff made the following statement: "The day will come when all that race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have."
The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes.
The old man spouting 'racist garbage' was only stating what a First Presidency statement from 1949 called a doctrine of the church.
But I suppose your position is that the 'prophets, seers, and revelators' who authored the statement didn't know what LDS doctrine was.
August 17, 1949
The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: "Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to."
President Wilford Woodruff made the following statement: "The day will come when all that race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have."
The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes.
That could be true too. People take the idea that premortal limitations might be placed on people and scream long and hard about the wickedness of it. I have a personal limitation that holds me back somewhat in life. I've learned that this penalty is there to help protect me from premortal failings. I accepted it and moved on. As almost everyone probably has such limitations I just deal with it. I would think others would too. Unless they're convinced that everyone is a flawless unique little snowflake contrary to all their powers of observation and reason.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:[...] Lorenzo Snow later said that he didn't know if the ban came by revelation or if it was policy. [...]
Wait a minute. You're saying that a 'Prophet of the Lord,' who supposedly held all those 'keys' on earth, didn't know whether something was a revelation?
Don't you see a bit of a problem with that?
Nope. So many people outside the Church here seem to have higher expectations of the Prophet then those inside of it.
Don't you see a bit of a problem with that?
The Prophet of the Church has the keys of the Priesthood and is the Revelator for the Earth. He gets revelation as God directs. For the rest, he's like everyone else, working out his salvation. He does not automatically get every idle question he has answered nor does he consult with angelic beings eager to answer his every question on a weekly basis. When most members say that our leaders are human and fallible who have specific mantles of authority that is not just parrot talk. We believe it.
El Nehor -- this is what makes me uncomfortable with the ban (ignoring for now the convenience of selective prophet/seer fallibility):
The implication here is that the Church continued to officially discriminate against an entire race of people for over 100 years, simply because no prophet before Kimball thought to ask if it was the right thing to do, and God was okay with that, even to the point of sitting by while LDS leaders came up with bizarre justifications for the practice.
(On a personal note, the reversal in 1978, with all its implications, served as a major catalyst for my own eventual apostasy.)
"The DNA of fictional populations appears to be the most susceptible to extinction." - Simon Southerton
The old man spouting 'racist garbage' was only stating what a First Presidency statement from 1949 called a doctrine of the church.
I notice it doesn't say anything about them not being valiant in the pre-mortal existence nor does it say anything about not having the blessing because they are black. In addition, it does not say that they can never have such blessings or that when they get them they will be in a separate place or that the blessings will be of lesser quality.