Yep, and that's all we have when it comes to the first vision too.
So why are you reading between the lines something that isn't there?
What we have is Joseph Smith' account of what Moroni told him in an angelic visitation. That's all that we have with Smith's first vision account too.
If the resurrected, exalted Moroni got some pretty basic facts wrong, or if Joseph wasn't bright enough to understand what an angel was telling him, how are we to believe that he didn't misunderstand what God was telling him too? Heck, maybe God didn't really understand the plan of salvation either when he told Joseph Smith that "The New and Everlasting Covenant" was required for exaltation. Or maybe Smith just misinterpreted it and wrote it down incorrectly. After all, we don't have the exact words that God said to Smith and how he interpreted them, we just have Smith's account of the revelation.
See, BCScapce and Nehor are on board with my theory. I should write a book. It would sell like hotcakes. I just need to get a PhD attached to my name.
Go for it, I probably won't read it though. I tend to use the book more as a warning-voice as opposed to a fascinating historical text.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote: Hence why we have the whole Holy Ghost thing. You know that thing we keep talking about that reveals the truth of things. I highly recommend it.
But people sometimes wrongly think they are receiving revelation from that source, don't they? How do we know that didn't happen to Smith at crucial points in his career?
That would be Joseph's problem. I have my own revelations to worry about.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote: Hence why we have the whole Holy Ghost thing. You know that thing we keep talking about that reveals the truth of things. I highly recommend it.
But people sometimes wrongly think they are receiving revelation from that source, don't they? How do we know that didn't happen to Smith at crucial points in his career?
That would be Joseph's problem. I have my own revelations to worry about.
Ohhhhh Kayyyy .... (But that's the prophet he's talking about. The prophet gets a revelation wrong and it's just the prophet's problem. Right).
The Nehor wrote: Hence why we have the whole Holy Ghost thing. You know that thing we keep talking about that reveals the truth of things. I highly recommend it.
Yeah, I used to believe that it was a reliable source of knowing too. Of course, there's no way to tell if there's a real "Holy Ghost" out there whispering stuff into our heads, or if it's just our own brains imagining things up based on what emotions we're feeling in reaction to a stimulus.
Sure, the LDS church claims that it's a very particular person doing the whispering and that it means a very particular thing, but who is Joseph Smith (or Moroni for that matter) to tell us what it means? Why should I believe him? He sure hasn't been reliable when it comes to a lot of other things, has he?
The Nehor wrote: Hence why we have the whole Holy Ghost thing. You know that thing we keep talking about that reveals the truth of things. I highly recommend it.
But people sometimes wrongly think they are receiving revelation from that source, don't they? How do we know that didn't happen to Smith at crucial points in his career?
That would be Joseph's problem. I have my own revelations to worry about.
Ohhhhh Kayyyy .... (But that's the prophet he's talking about. The prophet gets a revelation wrong and it's just the prophet's problem. Right).
It makes you wonder why anyone needs a prophet, or a church. Just read your Book of Mormon in the comfort of your home, pray for guidance, and listen to the Holy Ghost. If the Holy Ghost is the only real source of revelation, and he speaks to people, who needs prophets or a church? It seems prophets with their opinions that people sometimes mistaken for revelation just confuses everything.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
SatanWasSetUp wrote: It makes you wonder why anyone needs a prophet, or a church. Just read your Book of Mormon in the comfort of your home, pray for guidance, and listen to the Holy Ghost. If the Holy Ghost is the only real source of revelation, and he speaks to people, who needs prophets or a church?
And yet, all the prophets still insist that everyone pay them 10% of their income.
I guess I just answered your question as to what they're good for. :)
SatanWasSetUp wrote: It makes you wonder why anyone needs a prophet, or a church. Just read your Book of Mormon in the comfort of your home, pray for guidance, and listen to the Holy Ghost. If the Holy Ghost is the only real source of revelation, and he speaks to people, who needs prophets or a church?
And yet, all the prophets still insist that everyone pay them 10% of their income.
I guess I just answered your question as to what they're good for. :)
Yes. I believe if more TBMs started thinking like Nehor, the prophets would get a little concerned.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
The Nehor wrote: Hence why we have the whole Holy Ghost thing. You know that thing we keep talking about that reveals the truth of things. I highly recommend it.
But people sometimes wrongly think they are receiving revelation from that source, don't they? How do we know that didn't happen to Smith at crucial points in his career?
That would be Joseph's problem. I have my own revelations to worry about.
Ohhhhh Kayyyy .... (But that's the prophet he's talking about. The prophet gets a revelation wrong and it's just the prophet's problem. Right).
Brigham Young said something to the effect that one of his greatest worries is that the people would trust him and the other leaders so much that they wouldn't bother seeking revelation of their own. So yes, it is the people's problem if they don't do just that. Mindless adherence to teachings and doctrine may present a veneer of holiness and even make the Church look nice and tidy to those in and out of it but it never exalted anyone. Again, Brigham Young talked about this. He said that he would teach a secret that some people would never be exalted as they would never be weaned from needing others to tell them what to do whether that's Peter, Moses, Joseph, or Brigham.
Whaddaya know? God believes in personal responsibility.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote: Hence why we have the whole Holy Ghost thing. You know that thing we keep talking about that reveals the truth of things. I highly recommend it.
But people sometimes wrongly think they are receiving revelation from that source, don't they? How do we know that didn't happen to Smith at crucial points in his career?
That would be Joseph's problem. I have my own revelations to worry about.
Ohhhhh Kayyyy .... (But that's the prophet he's talking about. The prophet gets a revelation wrong and it's just the prophet's problem. Right).
Brigham Young said something to the effect that one of his greatest worries is that the people would trust him and the other leaders so much that they wouldn't bother seeking revelation of their own. So yes, it is the people's problem if they don't do just that. Mindless adherence to teachings and doctrine may present a veneer of holiness and even make the Church look nice and tidy to those in and out of it but it never exalted anyone. Again, Brigham Young talked about this. He said that he would teach a secret that some people would never be exalted as they would never be weaned from needing others to tell them what to do whether that's Peter, Moses, Joseph, or Brigham.
Whaddaya know? God believes in personal responsibility.
And indeed a robust independence of judgment, leading to a sceptical approach to all prophetic utterance, however authoritative its claims may be, has ever since Brigham been a distinguishing mark of LDS belief and practice.