More Jaredite delights

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_BishopRic
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Post by _BishopRic »

William Schryver wrote:Don't even bother with common sense, Nehor. These people are such motivated extremists that NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING -- no argument, however logical -- will serve to persuade them away from their preset conclusions.


Pot, meet kettle.
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche
_Canucklehead
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Post by _Canucklehead »

William Schryver wrote:Don't even bother with common sense, Nehor. These people are such motivated extremists that NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING -- no argument, however logical -- will serve to persuade them away from their preset conclusions.


That's true. The logic and skilled argumentation recently shown by the apologists in connection to the Jaredites has been nothing short of devastating to the points put forward by the critics. It's just that we're so X-TREME that we'll never be persuaded by logic and evidence.

I'm sure that any objective reader will attest to the fact that the critics lost this argument from the get-go and have merely engaged in semantic word-games to keep their position afloat. (Barf.)
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

TrashcanMan79 wrote:
The Nehor wrote:It would be LESS authentic if he had accurate details.


There you have it folks. Inaccuracy is evidence of the Book of Mormon's authenticity.

Incredible.


I didn't say inaccuracy. I said if he had accurate details of everything going on. Unless he was methodically tailing every person in the area I don't think that is likely. We also don't have Ether's record. We have Moroni's short version. I expect there is much more detail in those. This is a history of at least a thousand year long civilization contained in about 30 pages. I don't doubt that the armies of Shiz and Coriantumr fought their battle to the end but I also doubt they called everyone in and that no one fled in the night when they saw the insanity. I suppose you expect Ether to have kept watch on the camps all night to take care of this. The poor man wanted to sleep a little.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

This bit is not supposed to convey that everybody gathered together in the last battle:

11 And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did ahide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.
12 And it came to pass that they did gather together all the people upon all the face of the land, who had not been slain, save it was Ether.
13 And it came to pass that Ether did abehold all the doings of the people; and he beheld that the people who were for Coriantumr were gathered together to the army of Coriantumr; and the people who were for Shiz were gathered together to the army of Shiz.
14 Wherefore, they were for the space of four years gathering together the people, that they might get all who were upon the face of the land, and that they might receive all the strength which it was possible that they could receive.
15 And it came to pass that when they were all gathered together, every one to the army which he would, with their wives and their children—both men, women and children being armed with aweapons of war, having shields, and bbreastplates, and head-plates, and being clothed after the manner of war—they did march forth one against another to battle; and they fought all that day, and conquered not.


Anyone who could get that impression is a poor naïve apostate. That's the way it starts, just reading texts for what they mean, without listening to the whisperings of the Spirit.

Here is what we read in chapter 13:

20 And in the second year the word of the Lord came to Ether, that he should go and aprophesy unto bCoriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the people—
21 Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself. And he should only live to see the fulfilling of the prophecies which had been spoken concerning aanother people receiving the land for their inheritance; and Coriantumr should receive a burial by them; and every soul should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr.


And at the end of the story we are told:

33 And the Lord spake unto Ether, and said unto him: Go forth. And he went forth, and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled;


So we are told to expect complete destruction (apart from Coriantumr) by the word of the Lord; the process is narrated; then we are told that the word of the Lord had been fulfilled.

Survivors? Apart from Ether, only one apparently:


Omni 1: 21
21 And they gave an account of one aCoriantumr, and the slain of his people. And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.


Just as prophecied, no? If there were any survivors apart from Coriantumr and the prophet who brought him the word of the Lord, why then .. the poor old prophet got it wrong again!

by the way, this bit from the keyboard of Schryver is good:

For what it's worth, I entirely concur with your observation that the story would be LESS authentic if it met the expectations of these modern, extremist readers.


Of course the 'extremists' are not reading it in a modern light at all. They just want it to bear some vague resemblance to ancient warfare - in which nothing like this (with fighting children, for goodness sake!) ever happened. If it even bore some resemblance to decent fiction that would be preferable.

But it is just poorly constructed fantasy, such as one might expect from the half-educated. I wonder why?
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Does Coriantumr's household include everyone who followed him? That's an odd reading. I took it to mean his wife, children, servants, etc.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

The Nehor wrote:Does Coriantumr's household include everyone who followed him? That's an odd reading. I took it to mean his wife, children, servants, etc.


And he should only live to see the fulfilling of the prophecies which had been spoken concerning another people receiving the land for their inheritance; and Coriantumr should receive a burial by them; and every soul should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr.


Give up ... I am getting to feel sorry for you.
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Chap wrote:Give up ... I am getting to feel sorry for you.


Don't bother, I'm beyond pity.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

What a strange verse:

30 And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz.


I have the image in my mind of a dude in a field, breathing heavily - so he sticks his sword upright in the ground, and then leans against his sword (perhaps crossing his legs, wipping his brow). Then, he picks up his sword, and goes al qaeda on shiz. weird sort of detail to include. You can just see Joseph Smith's mind working here.

And, separately, the accuracy and detail of the Book of Mormon prophecies is amazing. It was prophesied that Coriantumr would be the last one standing, after millions of people had died. And guess what? That happened. Wow, amazing stuff.

The specificity of prophecies for things that have already happened (pre-1830s) is amazing, while the prophecies for things yet to happen (post 1830s) is amazingly vague. i'm sure it's just coincidental...

And chap - haven't you figured it out yet? When it comes to apologetics, all doesn't mean all, every doesn't mean every, 'face of the land' only means a small piece of the land - ie., your neighboorhood, translate doesn't mean translate, etc. etc. That's just your extremist/fundamentalist mindset. You should know better than to read things literally - you need some creativity to arrive at the truth here.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_William Schryver
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Post by _William Schryver »

The Nehor wrote:
Chap wrote:Give up ... I am getting to feel sorry for you.


Don't bother, I'm beyond pity.

It's like I said, Nehor. These guys are very motivated extremists. You must see it the way they claim to see it, or you're not a faithful LDS -- you're a heretic, or worse ... an apologist.

These people, almost without exception, are not very well-versed in ancient texts. They don't appreciate what one would look like, nor the kinds of things it would be likely to say about events that occurred then. They are simply extreme exmormons, with an agenda to convince current Mormons that everything associated with the religion is a crock.

Additionally, they manifest a notable tendency towards two-dimensional thinking, and given the right circumstances and just enough liquor, they'd make one hell of a mob.
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

William Schryver wrote:It's like I said, Nehor. These guys are very motivated extremists. You must see it the way they claim to see it, or you're not a faithful LDS -- you're a heretic, or worse ... an apologist.

These people, almost without exception, are not very well-versed in ancient texts. They don't appreciate what one would look like, nor the kinds of things it would be likely to say about events that occurred then. They are simply extreme exmormons, with an agenda to convince current Mormons that everything associated with the religion is a crock.

Additionally, they manifest a notable tendency towards two-dimensional thinking, and given the right circumstances and just enough liquor, they'd make one hell of a mob.


I think what you meant to say, is that we lack creativity. That special quality it takes to make words take on a whole new meaning - sometimes the opposite even. That special quality to think outside the box (or - outside the book in this case). To let your imagination run wild. A sort of seinfeld bizarro world scenario. A quality that only .001 of the world's population has. A special quality, indeed.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
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