Judge in FLDS case walks off the bench;

[_Mercury]

How can you tell that they are treated solely like commodities? Have you met some that do? I'm just saying that this statement and the leap towards slavery that follows are emotionally charged accusations that amount to guesses. Yes, there were horrible things happening but assuming that means that more horrible things are happening is kinda twisted.

I live on a farm. We pen up our cows so they can't escape. We kennel our dogs so they don't roam the neighborhood at night. Our best young heifers are auctioned off to the highest bidders. We make sure only prize bulls and studs mate with our cows and bitches, so the offspring is marketable.

I don't see how what the FLDS do with their daughters is much different. They live in compounds behind walls; they have no contact with the outside world. The daughters are not educated; they cannot attend college. They cannot have a career. The daughters are given to the highest ranking man who will have them. Their only value is as sex objects and mothers for the leaders of the compound. They have no intrinsic value of their own. Their only value is who they are related to and who is the highest bidder for their womb.

Sounds like a bitch of a life, to me.

Again, guesses and rather intense cynicism. While I have no doubt that many of the leaders are exploiting the organization the idea that everyone is in on it is ridiculous. Is it possible that some of the people believe their society is good and right and teach it to their children out of love for them? Maybe they don't think their girls are chattel and would be offended that you think that is how they view them?

You can't be serious. Why do you sport so much wood for the FLDS? Read James Clifford Millers response to your prattling and think critically for once in your boring life.

[Guest]

You can't be serious. Why do you sport so much wood for the FLDS? Read James Clifford Millers response to your prattling and think critically for once in your boring life.

I despise what the FLDS did and who they are. I just think Harmony is going overboard and throwing out random accusations to make crimes worse then they are.

[_The Nehor]

How can you tell that they are treated solely like commodities? Have you met some that do? I'm just saying that this statement and the leap towards slavery that follows are emotionally charged accusations that amount to guesses. Yes, there were horrible things happening but assuming that means that more horrible things are happening is kinda twisted.

I live on a farm. We pen up our cows so they can't escape. We kennel our dogs so they don't roam the neighborhood at night. Our best young heifers are auctioned off to the highest bidders. We make sure only prize bulls and studs mate with our cows and bitches, so the offspring is marketable.

I don't see how what the FLDS do with their daughters is much different. They live in compounds behind walls; they have no contact with the outside world. The daughters are not educated; they cannot attend college. They cannot have a career. The daughters are given to the highest ranking man who will have them. Their only value is as sex objects and mothers for the leaders of the compound. They have no intrinsic value of their own. Their only value is who they are related to and who is the highest bidder for their womb.

Sounds like a bitch of a life, to me.

Again, guesses and rather intense cynicism. While I have no doubt that many of the leaders are exploiting the organization the idea that everyone is in on it is ridiculous. Is it possible that some of the people believe their society is good and right and teach it to their children out of love for them? Maybe they don't think their girls are chattel and would be offended that you think that is how they view them?

First, it's such a tiny community on that compound in Texas, it is simply impossible for any FLDS not to know about the underage abuse. It is ridiculous to pretend that everyone is NOT in on it.

Second, no it is NOT possible that some in Texas teach underage sexual abuse to their children out of love for them. The FLDS Jeffs handpicked for Texas are those who truly believe Jeff's teachings that families no longer exist, and that children do NOT belong to their parents, but to the priesthood under Jeffs. Were you aware that he taught that? Many of the children do not even KNOW who their parents are. Were you aware of that? In fact, Jeffs took children away from their parents in Utah, Arizona, and British Columbia and sent them -- WITHOUT THEIR PARENTS -- to the Texas compound. If you truly loved your child, would you willingly give up that child to the church? What kind of love for your child results in that child not knowing who his or her parents are?

Nahor, I don't think you are very knowledgeable about what goes on in the compound in Texas. As another example, were you aware that the children were not allowed to play? They were either working or praying and never playing. There are no indoor toys or outdoor playthings in the compound. Were you aware of that? I ask how much love for a child can a parent have who won't allow the child to play.

James Clifford Miller

I think what happened there was wrong and much of it disgusting. However, to assume that they consciously bear children solely as sex slave stock and that they all actively seek to crush their children's spirit is hyperbole. It's emotionally charged hysteria and detracts from dealing with the real problems.

C.S. Lewis once said you can define when you are becoming a devil by a simple process. If you hear about a wrongdoing and are saddened by it that is healthy. If you later find out that the charges were exagerrated you should feel relief that they weren't that bad. If you want to believe the worst of them in any case or worse, try to add on to their crimes by unsubstantiated inferences and the like then you are probably on the road to becoming a devil. First you want to see lighter grays as black until eventually you can only see white as black. Then you're screwed.

[_Jersey Girl]

As another example, were you aware that the children were not allowed to play? They were either working or praying and never playing. There are no indoor toys or outdoor playthings in the compound. Were you aware of that? I ask how much love for a child can a parent have who won't allow the child to play.

James,

Could you come up with a link in reference to children not being allowed to play? I haven't read that any where in any news reports.

[_moksha]

Two items I am puzzled about are the FLDS Prophet's penchant for reassigning the wives and children to a new husband. Did he (or whoever will now do this) not care what this does to the already bizarre family dynamics of these families? How could this practice be viewed as anything but horrific?

The second item is the seeming expendibility of the young men. Mainstream LDS treasure their young men and could not imagine ejecting them to a life of street hustling in Las Vegas. Is there any way to put an apologetic happy face on this one?

[_Jersey Girl]

Two items I am puzzled about are the FLDS Prophet's penchant for reassigning the wives and children to a new husband. Did he (or whoever will now do this) not care what this does to the already bizarre family dynamics of these families? How could this practice be viewed as anything but horrific?

Do you mean Warren Jeffs? From what I've read so far, he's got a major league case of sociopathy going on. I doubt he views anything as horrific, with the possible exception of insubordination.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Mok,

Two items I am puzzled about are the FLDS Prophet's penchant for reassigning the wives and children to a new husband. Did he (or whoever will now do this) not care what this does to the already bizarre family dynamics of these families? How could this practice be viewed as anything but horrific?

According to two men I heard interviewed whose children are at the Texas compound, reassigned, and who hadn't seen their children in 4 and 5 years, they stated their children were in the best place for them. When you believe a prophet is receiving revelation from God, you believe that what he says is of God. These men believe Jeffs reassigned their children because God wanted them in the compound.

in my opinion, this is similar to the days of the early church where women (and their children) were taken away from their husbands by Joseph Smith to be sealed to him for eternity. Joseph Smith reassigned the families to him. Jeffs is just keeping the practice alive.

I guess the fear of God, the desire to obey, the belief a prophet is speaking for God, Trump's normal decency and the love of parents for their children and spouses for one another.

The second item is the seeming expendibility of the young men. Mainstream LDS treasure their young men and could not imagine ejecting them to a life of street hustling in Las Vegas. Is there any way to put an apologetic happy face on this one?

Again, I think the idea that only the righteous get to heaven, that the unrighteous are not worthy, that God will take care of it Trump's normal decency and love.

I think of how seemingly comfortable many believers are (of many religions) knowing that their non-believing children will not be with them in heaven and while some are devastated, many seem to be fine with a belief system that separates families due to belief. I hear things like, "God will take care of it," or, "everyone will receive their just reward," or something to justify the fact (in their minds), that God is fine with breaking up families if some are not as righteous as another.

It baffles me.

~dancer~

[_harmony]

Again, guesses and rather intense cynicism. While I have no doubt that many of the leaders are exploiting the organization the idea that everyone is in on it is ridiculous. Is it possible that some of the people believe their society is good and right and teach it to their children out of love for them? Maybe they don't think their girls are chattel and would be offended that you think that is how they view them?

How could anyone think they aren't all in on it? It's not like they're living hundreds of miles apart. They all live in the same compound, in the same dormatories. They work together, they pray together, they eat together. According to the reports, the only private rooms are the bedrooms.

I'm sure they would be offended at my description of their girls as chattel. That doesn't mean I'm wrong. They use their girls as bargaining chips to further their own eternal reward (boy, does that ever sound familiar), and kick their boys that aren't being groomed for leadership to the curb (again, does that sound familiar?) That's exactly what farmers do with their cattle.

[_James Clifford Miller]

As another example, were you aware that the children were not allowed to play? They were either working or praying and never playing. There are no indoor toys or outdoor playthings in the compound. Were you aware of that? I ask how much love for a child can a parent have who won't allow the child to play.

James,

Could you come up with a link in reference to children not being allowed to play? I haven't read that any where in any news reports.

I didn't save the articles, but I'll do some research. As I recall, it was in articles by John Dougherty who was an investigative reporter for the Phoenix New Times, now employed by the New York Times. I think this specific article was published in the Arizona Republic. My time is limited, but I'll try to get back to you by Friday.

James Clifford Miller

[_truth dancer]

Jersey Girl,

In answer to your question about children playing...

Did you get a chance to read the document the mom's wrote concerning the children's schedules?

If I recall correctly, it stated that the children can play with a jump rope or a ball.

And yeah, for those of us who are passionate about children's play it makes us CRAZY! ;-)

~dancer~