Monson in Brazil

[_dartagnan]

Would they dare shoot down President Kimball's insinuation that Cain is actually bigfoot?

[_Mister Scratch]

What I find baffling about The Nehor's comments is his basically hypocritical attitude. He thinks that it's all fine and dandy to label others' spiritual experiences as "myths," and yet I'd be willing to guess that Joseph Smith's claims about angels and such is a deadly serious matter to him.

I grew up in a family that was often one of the core families in the ward. We socialized most often with families that were very active, all the sons went on Missions, and all their children are still active. The bedrock of the Church. They all shot down these stories. We call them myths.

I wonder: did they also shoot down the stories about lights in the Kirtland temple? Did they call the First Vision a "myth"?

[_The Nehor]

Would they dare shoot down President Kimball's insinuation that Cain is actually bigfoot?

Never came up, I have though.

[_dartagnan]

Yea, I don't buy it. I have been in the church in too many places for far too long to overlook the overwhelming appeal to urban legends. They are usually concocted in the mission field. It was a guy serving his mission who came across bigfoot right? It was a guy on his mission in the 19th century who almost drowned, which started the popular claim that Satan rules the oceans, therefore missionaries can't swim or they will be giving power to Satan to kill them.

And what about the dozens of "dusting off the feet" stories? My last companion told me that his Dad dusted his feet after leaving an Evangelical dry cleaners which had hung LDS garments in their window. He said the next day the place burned to the ground. If I dwell on it, I could probably think of another dozen hilarious stories. But the point is, nobody challenges them. They are taken for granted as spiritual evidence in favor of the Gospel.

That's because the Mormon culture is one that appeals strongly to supertition and a feeling of being special. IF all these stories are true, then the Church is true and they are the unique chosen people of God. The rest of the world is in darkness, bla bla bla. It is their sense of identity, and they will fight tooth and nail to protect it. EVen if it means conjuring up more and more stories to keep future generations believing.

[_The Nehor]

Yea, I don't buy it. I have been in the church in too many places for far too long to overlook the overwhelming appeal to urban legends. They are usually concocted in the mission field. It was a guy serving his mission who came across bigfoot right? It was a guy on his mission in the 19th century who almost drowned, which started the popular claim that Satan rules the oceans, therefore missionaries can't swim or they will be giving power to Satan to kill them.

And what about the dozens of "dusting off the feet" stories? My last companion told me that his Dad dusted his feet after leaving an Evangelical dry cleaners which had hung LDS garments in their window. He said the next day the place burned to the ground. If I dwell on it, I could probably think of another dozen hilarious stories. But the point is, nobody challenges them. They are taken for granted as spiritual evidence in favor of the Gospel.

That's because the Mormon culture is one that appeals strongly to supertition and a feeling of being special. IF all these stories are true, then the Church is true and they are the unique chosen people of God. The rest of the world is in darkness, bla bla bla. It is their sense of identity, and they will fight tooth and nail to protect it. EVen if it means conjuring up more and more stories to keep future generations believing.

On Missions, yes, there is a pandemic. Also among children. However, this is hardly an LDS-specific situation. I saw it through High School and to a lesser degree in college. However, on Missions it's mostly folklore. I hope no one believes all of it. I had the neat opportunity to meet a Sister who went to my Mission six months after I left. There were still stories about me. Some of them were amazing. It seems I sought out and won a Bible Bash against every Catholic Bishop in every area I served in. They also overestimated the size of my pizza box tower I made. It was never taller then a two-story house....unfortunately....

[_dartagnan]

On Missions, yes, there is a pandemic. Also among children. However, this is hardly an LDS-specific situation. I saw it through High School and to a lesser degree in college. However, on Missions it's mostly folklore. I hope no one believes all of it.

They do when LDS leaders are propagating it. Paul H. Dunn was hardly unique. He is just the only one who got caught lying. Even today in conferences you see LDS leaders sharing miraculous experiences that, of course, nobody can verify. Again, when Spencer W. Kimball write a book and starts the bigfoot myth, that pretty much signs mythmaking with an authority behind it.

I am particularly pissed because this is the kind of crap that keeps some people in the Church. Like my wife, and her sister. They live for these stories. It is their treasure, and if you dare try to take it from them they'll hate your guts. I'm not kidding either. This is the norm in the Brazilian Church. They couldn't tell you the first damned thing about LDS doctrine. My sister-in-law even drinks regularly, but she will defend the Church til the end because she knows its true.

When my wife first heard some critic telling her that Mormons believe in the existence of multiple gods, she thought the guy was lying and agreed with him that there is only one God in existence, who doesn't have a body, who isn't married, etc. I had to sit her down and explain to her that this really was LDS teaching. But then she didn't care. What matters is how she "feels" when she goes to Church and how other LDS can make her feel special.

[_The Nehor]

On Missions, yes, there is a pandemic. Also among children. However, this is hardly an LDS-specific situation. I saw it through High School and to a lesser degree in college. However, on Missions it's mostly folklore. I hope no one believes all of it.

They do when LDS leaders are propagating it. Paul H. Dunn was hardly unique. He is just the only one who got caught lying. Even today in conferences you see LDS leaders sharing miraculous experiences that, of course, nobody can verify. Again, when Spencer W. Kimball write a book and starts the bigfoot myth, that pretty much signs mythmaking with an authority behind it.

I am particularly pissed because this is the kind of crap that keeps some people in the Church. Like my wife, and her sister. They live for these stories. It is their treasure, and if you dare try to take it from them they'll hate your guts. I'm not kidding either. This is the norm in the Brazilian Church. They couldn't tell you the first damned thing about LDS doctrine. My sister-in-law even drinks regularly, but she will defend the Church til the end because she knows its true.

When my wife first heard some critic telling her that Mormons believe in the existence of multiple gods, she thought the guy was lying and agreed with him that there is only one God in existence, who doesn't have a body, who isn't married, etc. I had to sit her down and explain to her that this really was LDS teaching. But then she didn't care. What matters is how she "feels" when she goes to Church and how other LDS can make her feel special.

Sorry man, sounds like a rough situation.

In my experience most LDS leaders share stories that happened to them or to someone who told it to them. I have less of a problem with these stories. The ones that annoy me are the ones that the speaker can't verify and yet feels the need to tell anyways or the immensely private ones that I don't want to knoww about.

[_dblagent007]

There is a lot of folklore related to the church. Most Mormons I know are skeptical of most of it. The degree to which most believe in these stories is largely proportional to how high the leadership position is of the person telling it. I tend to believe a story told by an apostle more than a story told by my hometeacher just because I think that an apostle is much more likely to verify the story first than my hometeacher.

Kevin you seem to think it is our job to immediately refute such stories whenever they are told. Well most of us don't do that because it is very rude. I did it once. An aunt told a story to a group of us standing around outside of a temple after a wedding. The story was that a large round circular piece of glass for the San Diego temple was miraculously spared from being destroyed during the 89 earthquake in San Francisco. The glass was being manufactured in SF. This allowed the temple to open on schedule since it would take a year or something to replace it. I and most of the relatives knew the true story that the piece of glass was for the Las Vegas temple and it was hanging when the earthquake hit so that it was not damaged. They hung it because that was the only real way to prevent it from being damaged during transport.

I corrected the aunt and she looked really stupid. Afterwards, my other relatives let me know that I really lacked tact. In hindsight, I think it would have been better for me to have just shut up rather than publicly correct her and make her feel dumb.

I was warned as a missionary not to believe most faith promoting stories. A class at the MTC made up a faith promoting story to see what would happen. Within a week, it was told in one of the large group meetings. We were warned that a lot of that stuff is junk.

I should note that my mother-in-law claimed that the Lord inspired her to get a boob job. Well, every Mormon I have told that story doesn't believe it (although a few men seemed to hold out hope that their wife would be so inspired).

[_dartagnan]

Kevin you seem to think it is our job to immediately refute such stories whenever they are told.

Not at all. I just know that after twenty years of nonsense, and realizing it always happens to someone outside the realm of verification, that I cannot in good conscience give credence to any of it any more. And I can see the power it has in the Church. It serves as the spiritual glue that holds people to it in the absence of verifiable evidence that the Church is true. And what pisses me off even more is that missionaries use this crap to help in their conversion efforts. My brother-in-law was taking the discussions in Brazil and it boggled my mind some of the stuff the sisters were telling him. If the investigator doesn't return to the next discussion with a testimony from pray, the missionaries take drastic measures by telling them stories, and then these are complimented with the follow-up crying session, putting him on the spot, making him feel like an ass for not being spiritual enough to cry along or to give in and commit to baptism. Its almost sick.

Well most of us don't do that because it is very rude.

I don't believe that for a second. While you may think it is rude, most people don't do it because they accept them. They need stuff like this to keep them going in their own life void of similar "experiences." Mormons always hope that one day they will encounter a powerful "spiritual witness" like Brother Blow and Sister Sneeze. It is all designed to encourage them to go home and be more obedient. Pray more, do your callings, pay your tithing, etc. You might even be spiritual enough to be a Stake President some day.

I was warned as a missionary not to believe most faith promoting stories. A class at the MTC made up a faith promoting story to see what would happen.

Since when did the MTC start teaching people not to believe faith promoting stories? This sounds liek a faith promoting story in itself. I have been to the MTC; I even taught there. Missionaries thrive off of these stories. Our teacher from Argentina waited for the last week before he started to warn us about demonic experiences that were "certainly" to occur during our missions. We might have to cast out demons and such. Our Mission President told a story to the entire mission about how one investigator went nuts the day before her baptism, and started speaking weird languages. He said his MP had to do an exorcism and put the demon into a dog, which then ran into the street and got ran over. I crap you not. There wasn't a single missionary in the crowd of over 130, who thought he was full of crap. Instead, all they talked about is how cool it is to have the Melch priesthood for situations like that.

I should note that my mother-in-law claimed that the Lord inspired her to get a boob job.

I'm not talking about "I think God wants me to do this" kind of stories. Those are easily dismissed. I am talking about stories that involve multiple parties, involve miracles that are verifiable to anyone who was actually there, and are conveniently void of any information that would allow us to validate any of it.

[_The Nehor]

I love the hellhound story. lol. Oh crap. Now I'm tempted to work it into the lesson I'm giving on Truth versus Myth for Sunday School in a few weeks.