Pine Box Thread: Suicide or Giving in to Rape?

[_bcspace]

I'd say this mindset among us is mostly a fiction created ex nihilo by you guys.

The line of thinking of fighting to the death during a rape situation was, indeed, something that was taught by President Kimball.

Any doctrinal references?

However, I think that, just as many of Brigham Young's teachings in the JoD are more indicative of culture than true revelation, this teaching all falls into that category. Rape was still a very taboo subject during that era. A lot has changed in 30 years as far as counseling resources, and education involving rape, and other forms of abuse.

The Church of today does not back this principle. It would be nice, however, if it would be stated publicly.

I don't think very many LDS operated under this "principle" even as far back as the 1970's.

[_Yoda]

I have actually spoken personally with Elder Scott. I know him fairly well. His views from the first talk were actually taken a little out of context.

I'd be interested in seeing the full talk to see how it's been taken out of context. Is it available on line?

There is a huge contrast between his most recent conference talk (2008) and the other one which was quoted in 1992.

Here is a larger portion, specifically addressing the victim, from his MOST RECENT talk on the subject:

o the Victim

I testify that I know victims of serious abuse who have successfully made the difficult journey to full healing through the power of the Atonement. After her own concerns were resolved by her faith in the healing power of the Atonement, one young woman who had been severely abused by her father requested another interview with me. She returned with an older couple. I could sense that she loved the two very deeply. Her face radiated happiness. She began, “Elder Scott, this is my father. I love him. He’s concerned about some things that happened in my early childhood. They are no longer a problem for me. Could you help him?” What a powerful confirmation of the Savior’s capacity to heal! She no longer suffered from the consequences of abuse, because she had adequate understanding of His Atonement, sufficient faith, and was obedient to His law. As you conscientiously study the Atonement and exercise your faith that Jesus Christ has the power to heal, you can receive the same blessed relief. During your journey of recovery, accept His invitation to let Him share your burden until you have sufficient time and strength to be healed.

To find relief from the consequences of abuse, it is helpful to understand their source. Satan is the author of all of the destructive outcomes of abuse. He has extraordinary capacity to lead an individual into blind alleys where the solution to extremely challenging problems cannot be found. His strategy is to separate the suffering soul from the healing attainable from a compassionate Heavenly Father and a loving Redeemer.

If you have been abused, Satan will strive to convince you that there is no solution. Yet he knows perfectly well that there is. Satan recognizes that healing comes through the unwavering love of Heavenly Father for each of His children. He also understands that the power of healing is inherent in the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Therefore, his strategy is to do all possible to separate you from your Father and His Son. Do not let Satan convince you that you are beyond help.

Satan uses your abuse to undermine your self-confidence, destroy trust in authority, create fear, and generate feelings of despair. Abuse can damage your ability to form healthy human relationships. You must have faith that all of these negative consequences can be resolved; otherwise they will keep you from full recovery. While these outcomes have powerful influence in your life, they do not define the real you.

Satan will strive to alienate you from your Father in Heaven with the thought that if He loved you He would have prevented the tragedy. Do not be kept from the very source of true healing by the craftiness of the prince of evil and his wicked lies. Recognize that if you have feelings that you are not loved by your Father in Heaven, you are being manipulated by Satan. Even when it may seem very difficult to pray, kneel and ask Father in Heaven to give you the capacity to trust Him and to feel His love for you. Ask to come to know that His Son can heal you through His merciful Atonement.

It was Satan’s proposal that Father’s children be forced to obey, that there be no moral agency and therefore no personal growth. To preserve moral agency, the Lord does not restrain individuals from improper use of that agency. However, He will punish them for such acts unless there is full repentance. Through the Holy Ghost, He sends warning promptings to the abuser, but often that individual’s degrading appetite is so powerful that it blocks out that spiritual guidance. That is why our Father provided a way to heal the consequences of acts that, through force, misuse of authority, or fear of another, temporarily take away the agency of the abused.

The beginning of healing requires childlike faith in the unalterable fact that Father in Heaven loves you and has supplied a way to heal. His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, laid down His life to provide that healing. But there is no magic solution, no simple balm to provide healing, nor is there an easy path to the complete remedy. The cure requires profound faith in Jesus Christ and in His infinite capacity to heal. It is rooted in an understanding of doctrine and a resolute determination to follow it.

Healing may begin with a thoughtful bishop or stake president or a wise professional counselor. If you had a broken leg, you wouldn’t decide to fix it yourself. Serious abuse can also benefit from professional help. There are many ways to begin healing, but remember that a full cure comes through the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, our Master and Redeemer. Have faith that with effort His perfect, eternal, infinite Atonement can heal your suffering from the consequences of abuse.

As impossible as it may seem to you now, in time the healing you can receive from the Savior will allow you to truly forgive the abuser and even have feelings of sorrow for him or her. When you can forgive the offense, you will be relieved of the pain and heartache that Satan wants in your life by encouraging you to hate the abuser. As a result, you will enjoy greater peace. While an important part of healing, if the thought of forgiveness causes you yet more pain, set that step aside until you have more experience with the Savior’s healing power in your own life.1

If you are currently being abused or have been in the past, find the courage to seek help. You may have been severely threatened or caused to fear so that you would not reveal the abuse. Have the courage to act now. Seek the support of someone you can trust. Your bishop or stake president can give you valuable counsel and help you with the civil authorities. Explain how you have been abused and identify who has done it. Ask for protection. Your action may help others avoid becoming innocent victims, with the consequent suffering. Get help now. Do not fear—for fear is a tool Satan will use to keep you suffering. The Lord will help you, but you must reach out for that help.

Do not be discouraged if initially a bishop hesitates when you identify an abuser. Remember that predators are skillful at cultivating a public appearance of piety to mask their despicable acts. Pray to be guided in your efforts to receive help. That support will come. Rest assured that the Perfect Judge, Jesus the Christ, with a perfect knowledge of the details, will hold all abusers accountable for every unrighteous act. In time He will fully apply the required demands of justice unless there is complete repentance. Your preoccupation with a need for justice only slows your healing and allows the perpetrator to continue his abusive control. Therefore you should leave punishment for the diabolic acts of abuse to civil and Church authorities.

Here is a link to the entire talk:

http://LDS.org/conference/talk/display/ ... 15,00.html

Here is the link to the 1992 talk:

1992 talk

I think we need to take his most recent words more to heart about his feelings on the subject.

[_bcspace]

Here is a link to the entire talk:

http://LDS.org/conference/talk/display/ ... 15,00.html

Here is the link to the 1992 talk:

1992 talk

I think we need to take his most recent words more to heart about his feelings on the subject.

So what is the problem?

[_Yoda]

I'd say this mindset among us is mostly a fiction created ex nihilo by you guys.

The line of thinking of fighting to the death during a rape situation was, indeed, something that was taught by President Kimball.

Any doctrinal references?

However, I think that, just as many of Brigham Young's teachings in the JoD are more indicative of culture than true revelation, this teaching all falls into that category. Rape was still a very taboo subject during that era. A lot has changed in 30 years as far as counseling resources, and education involving rape, and other forms of abuse.

The Church of today does not back this principle. It would be nice, however, if it would be stated publicly.

I don't think very many LDS operated under this "principle" even as far back as the 1970's.

President Kimball specifically spoke about this issue in his book, "The Miracle of Forgiveness". He also spoke about it in several talks. I will reference them later, when I have time to look them up. Also, if you read earlier in the thread, Beastie has spoken about some of her experiences regarding emphasis by Church leaders that was placed on this topic when she attended BYU, and how it was dealt with.

You and I are arguing on the same side of the issue here, BC. I'm not stating that this is Church doctrine. I don't believe it is. But I can see how members could misconstrue it as being such, based on some of the statements that President Kimball publicly made.

[_Jason Bourne]

I'd say this mindset among us is mostly a fiction created ex nihilo by you guys.

The line of thinking of fighting to the death during a rape situation was, indeed, something that was taught by President Kimball.

Any doctrinal references?

However, I think that, just as many of Brigham Young's teachings in the JoD are more indicative of culture than true revelation, this teaching all falls into that category. Rape was still a very taboo subject during that era. A lot has changed in 30 years as far as counseling resources, and education involving rape, and other forms of abuse.

The Church of today does not back this principle. It would be nice, however, if it would be stated publicly.

I don't think very many LDS operated under this "principle" even as far back as the 1970's.

I recommend you read Kimballs MoF. It if right in there dude.

From MoF:

"Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is absolutely no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."

Here are a few choice quotes:

You will recall Alma’s teaching his son Corianton that unchastity is the most serious offense there is in the sight of God, except for murder or denying the Holy Ghost. (See Alma 39:5.) President Clark, in a conference address in October 1938, said: 'Chastity is fundamental to our life and to our civilization. If the race becomes unchaste, it will perish. Immorality has been basic to the destruction of mighty nations of the past; it will bring to dust the mighty nations of the present. You young people, may I directly entreat you to be chaste. Please believe me when I say that chastity is worth more than life itself. This is the doctrine my parents taught me; it is truth. It is better to die chaste than to live unchaste. The salvation of your very souls is concerned in this.' (In Conference Report, Oct. 1938, pp. 137-38). Now, my dear friends, we know there is nothing new in what we have said. These things are time-tested; they are true. To this we testify"
-First Presidency Message "We Believe in Being Chaste," Ensign, Sept. 1981, page 3

"A boy whom the apostle (Spencer W. Kimball) a week back had turned down for a missionary recommend, wrote that he had resisted petting with his girl, and was determined to justify the apostle's confidence in him. And a young girl wrote him thanks for his counsel the week before, continuing: "I know with your (Spencer W. Kimball) blessing and your prayers I will overcome my weaknesses. Pray for me, please. It seems easier to have some help. I hope there are few in this world like me. I often wondered why the Lord didn't destroy me for all the things I've done."
- Biography of Spencer W. Kimball, Chapter 15.

[_Yoda]

Here is a link to the entire talk:

http://LDS.org/conference/talk/display/ ... 15,00.html

Here is the link to the 1992 talk:

1992 talk

I think we need to take his most recent words more to heart about his feelings on the subject.

So what is the problem?

There isn't a problem, as far as I'm concerned, BC. Elder Scott is a family member. I have a little bit of insight as to his intent regarding this talk. All I was doing was simply trying to enlighten those who seemed to feel differently. Moniker asked to read the full talks so I was providing her with the references.

[_bcspace]

I recommend you read Kimballs MoF. It if right in there dude.

I have indeed read the MoF, but I note that since it is not published by the Church, it is not doctrinal (see my siggy below). However, can you find this quote within a doctrinal work of the Church?

You will recall Alma’s teaching his son Corianton that unchastity is the most serious offense there is in the sight of God, except for murder or denying the Holy Ghost. (See Alma 39:5.) President Clark, in a conference address in October 1938, said: 'Chastity is fundamental to our life and to our civilization. If the race becomes unchaste, it will perish. Immorality has been basic to the destruction of mighty nations of the past; it will bring to dust the mighty nations of the present. You young people, may I directly entreat you to be chaste. Please believe me when I say that chastity is worth more than life itself. This is the doctrine my parents taught me; it is truth. It is better to die chaste than to live unchaste. The salvation of your very souls is concerned in this.' (In Conference Report, Oct. 1938, pp. 137-38). Now, my dear friends, we know there is nothing new in what we have said. These things are time-tested; they are true. To this we testify"
-First Presidency Message "We Believe in Being Chaste," Ensign, Sept. 1981, page 3

Does this say anything about rape or abuse in and of itself causing one to be unchaste? Certainly abuse and rape introduces someone to carnal knowledge which may cause them to be tempted in the future much more than they otherwise would be. But it does not necessarily follow.

"A boy whom the apostle (Spencer W. Kimball) a week back had turned down for a missionary recommend, wrote that he had resisted petting with his girl, and was determined to justify the apostle's confidence in him. And a young girl wrote him thanks for his counsel the week before, continuing: "I know with your (Spencer W. Kimball) blessing and your prayers I will overcome my weaknesses. Pray for me, please. It seems easier to have some help. I hope there are few in this world like me. I often wondered why the Lord didn't destroy me for all the things I've done."
- Biography of Spencer W. Kimball, Chapter 15.

Yet another nondoctrinal work.

[_bcspace]

There isn't a problem, as far as I'm concerned, BC. Elder Scott is a family member. I have a little bit of insight as to his intent regarding this talk. All I was doing was simply trying to enlighten those who seemed to feel differently. Moniker asked to read the full talks so I was providing her with the references.

Okay.

[_Yoda]

I have indeed read the MoF, but I note that since it is not published by the Church, it is not doctrinal (see my siggy below).

Agreed. But most run of the mill Church members do not split hairs in this fashion. Also, although the book was not technically published by the Church, it was WRITTEN by the current prophet of the day.

[_Jason Bourne]

I have indeed read the MoF, but I note that since it is not published by the Church, it is not doctrinal (see my siggy below). However, can you find this quote within a doctrinal work of the Church?

I don't care about your stupid sig and your delusions about what you think is or is not doctrine. The Book was written by an apostle. It was for many years, and indeed still is, referenced in manuals that you think are doctrine. It has been quoted, used by bishops to counsel wayward members and so on. It was the land mark book on repentance for many year. So whether it is doctrinal or not is moot. It was used and members read it and applied it and at times many of his harsh comments caused people undue grief. Go back to your other board fool and read what people there are saying about struggles to the death on the thread on this topic.

You will recall Alma’s teaching his son Corianton that unchastity is the most serious offense there is in the sight of God, except for murder or denying the Holy Ghost. (See Alma 39:5.) President Clark, in a conference address in October 1938, said: 'Chastity is fundamental to our life and to our civilization. If the race becomes unchaste, it will perish. Immorality has been basic to the destruction of mighty nations of the past; it will bring to dust the mighty nations of the present. You young people, may I directly entreat you to be chaste. Please believe me when I say that chastity is worth more than life itself. This is the doctrine my parents taught me; it is truth. It is better to die chaste than to live unchaste. The salvation of your very souls is concerned in this.' (In Conference Report, Oct. 1938, pp. 137-38). Now, my dear friends, we know there is nothing new in what we have said. These things are time-tested; they are true. To this we testify"
-First Presidency Message "We Believe in Being Chaste," Ensign, Sept. 1981, page 3

Does this say anything about rape or abuse in and of itself causing one to be unchaste? Certainly abuse and rape introduces someone to carnal knowledge which may cause them to be tempted in the future much more than they otherwise would be. But it does not necessarily follow.

I simply provided it to show other stupid over the top teachings LDS leaders have given about sexual sin.

"A boy whom the apostle (Spencer W. Kimball) a week back had turned down for a missionary recommend, wrote that he had resisted petting with his girl, and was determined to justify the apostle's confidence in him. And a young girl wrote him thanks for his counsel the week before, continuing: "I know with your (Spencer W. Kimball) blessing and your prayers I will overcome my weaknesses. Pray for me, please. It seems easier to have some help. I hope there are few in this world like me. I often wondered why the Lord didn't destroy me for all the things I've done."
- Biography of Spencer W. Kimball, Chapter 15.

Yet another nondoctrinal work.

You really are an idiot about these things. Get it through your head. When a leader says something over and over it does not matter if it reaches your level of doctrine. Members read it and believe it really means something.