More on the Financing of Mopologetics

[_antishock8]

God, that stupid asshole just doesn't know when to shut up. The funny thing is if he'd just quit lying about his practices this would be no big deal. He's fomenting more interest in this topic than it deserves precisely because he's such a weasel about everything.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Poor antishock8 illustrates quite nicely why believing Latter-day Saints are flocking to this board for its quality arguments, high level of rational discourse, and friendly atmosphere. And it was very courageous and forthright of him to publish his salary under his actual legal name, antishock8. I expect that others here will now feel emboldened to make their personal incomes and financial data public. Can Social Security and bank account numbers be far behind?

Well, then, this means the the LDS Church reall is funding Mopologetics. If the Church itself is sending one of its own professional fund-raisers along with you on the trips, then the Church is working to keep apologetics alive and well. Sorry, my dear old friend Prof. P., but you have now rather stupidly ponied up the evidence that the Church helps to fund apologetics. D'oh!

Private donations are sought to support the Maxwell Institute, a broad-spectrum operation that digitizes manuscripts and other texts at the Vatican, in Herculaneum, at Petra, and in Bonampak; publishes dual-language editions of medieval Jewish medical treatises and medieval Islamic philosophy and science and early eastern Christian literature; constructs databases of materials from Qumran and the Popol Vuh; is creating an electronic library of out-of-print secondary literature on ancient Syriac Christianity; produces documentary films on the recovery of papyrus texts from the destruction of Vesuvius and on the ancient frankincense trail, etc., and you simplistically think this proves that the Church funds apologetics?

And do you really imagine that I have ever denied that BYU (and thus, indirectly, the Church) has provided and continues to provide some basic support to the Maxwell Institute? On the contrary, as even harmony realizes (above), I've repeatedly said -- for years, whenever asked -- that the University provides low-priority space on campus for the Institute; that, for the past few years, the University has funded its minimal office functions (e.g., administrative staff, secretary, and accountant) and provided some other very elementary assistance. The provision of a fundraiser, by far the most significant example of this very elementary assistance, has been a relatively recent help, and, given the fact that we need to raise every single dime required for every research, filming, and publication project, has been quite useful. My numerous statements on this topic, making precisely this point, are scattered across the board formerly known as FAIR and elsewhere, and have probably even appeared here. You track me obsessively, looking for ammunition with which you hope to discredit and defame me; if you were at all interested in accuracy and justice, you would also have acknowledged those statements and would not, disingenuously, be misrepresenting what I've just said here and what I've said previously, seeking, dishonestly, to portray them as contradictory. You'll always have your eager and admiring disciples here, though, so there'll be no great external pressure on you to treat me or any other believing Latter-day Saint with charity or even minimal fairness.

[_Jersey Girl]

I'm framing this.

LOL. The size of my salary is none of your business, just as the size of your allowance is none of mine.

Totally priceless!

[_harmony]

I'm framing this.

LOL. The size of my salary is none of your business, just as the size of your allowance is none of mine.

Totally priceless!

I thought you were supposedly gardening, jersey! I got my bushes and shrubs in the ground and I'm done for the day.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I am the highest paid fundraiser in my agency in 12 states. Granted, that isn't saying much. lol

[_Mister Scratch]

Well, then, this means the the LDS Church reall is funding Mopologetics. If the Church itself is sending one of its own professional fund-raisers along with you on the trips, then the Church is working to keep apologetics alive and well. Sorry, my dear old friend Prof. P., but you have now rather stupidly ponied up the evidence that the Church helps to fund apologetics. D'oh!

Private donations are sought to support the Maxwell Institute, a broad-spectrum operation that digitizes manuscripts and other texts at the Vatican, in Herculaneum, at Petra, and in Bonampak; publishes dual-language editions of medieval Jewish medical treatises and medieval Islamic philosophy and science and early eastern Christian literature; constructs databases of materials from Qumran and the Popol Vuh; is creating an electronic library of out-of-print secondary literature on ancient Syriac Christianity; produces documentary films on the recovery of papyrus texts from the destruction of Vesuvius and on the ancient frankincense trail, etc., and you simplistically think this proves that the Church funds apologetics?

And do you really imagine that I have ever denied that BYU (and thus, indirectly, the Church) has provided and continues to provide some basic support to the Maxwell Institute?

It's hard to say. For whatever reason, you have most definitely tried to downplay the Church's involvement with Mopologetics. (By the way, I notice that you rather conveniently ignored the point I made about how the FP revised its stand on the Hill Cumorah.) Look at this:

And no, the Church does not pay for the paper for books, nor for their printing, nor for their binding, etc. The Church also didn't pay anything toward the filming, editing, etc., of the two Journey of Faith films. Nor has the Church paid for the Dead Sea Scrolls database that we've produced and on which we continue to work. And the Church doesn't pay for web design or book design, either.

Do you see what I mean? What I've just cited here is what you usually say when asked about how Mopologetics are funded. I believe that the reason you do this relates to the series of speculations Harmony posted above. For whatever reason, you and your fellow apologists would like TBMs to believe that you all are just a bunch of well-meaning, scholarly LDS who are doing all of this on your own. But, the real truth seems to be that the Church feels it's necessary to encourage and help you guys. You have tried to spin the information in order to avoid the charge that the Church "needs" professional apologetics.

On the contrary, as even harmony realizes (above), I've repeatedly said -- for years, whenever asked -- that the University provides low-priority space on campus for the Institute; that, for the past few years, the University has funded its minimal office functions (e.g., administrative staff, secretary, and accountant) and provided some other very elementary assistance.

(emphasis added)

Do you see what I mean? It is this endless playing around with meaning. Critics have long asked: "Does the Church help out with Mopologetics?" Rather than simply saying, "Yes," you feel compelled to added countless qualifications, once again trying to squelch what is becoming increasingly obvious: The Church feels that it *needs* professional apologetics. That, ultimately, is why you are here trying to do damage control. It is why LoaP and Droopy have gotten so upset at these threads, etc.

The provision of a fundraiser, by far the most significant example of this very elementary assistance, has been a relatively recent help, and, given the fact that we need to raise every single dime required for every research, filming, and publication project, has been quite useful.

Oh, I bet it's been very useful. I bet the Brethren agree 100% with that.

My numerous statements on this topic, making precisely this point, are scattered across the board formerly known as FAIR and elsewhere, and have probably even appeared here.

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here. Are you referring to "numerous statements" in which you've revealed that you and others get paid for Mopology? Or that the Church has helped fund Mopologetics? Or the "numerous statements" which try to downplay those facts?

You track me obsessively, looking for ammunition with which you hope to discredit and defame me; if you were at all interested in accuracy and justice, you would also have acknowledged those statements and would not, disingenuously, be misrepresenting what I've just said here and what I've said previously, seeking, dishonestly, to portray them as contradictory.

Where have I tried to "portray" anything as "contradictory"? Certainly, as I've said, I think you've tried hard to reassure worried Saints that all is well in Zion. But, on the other hand, I doubt you'd be too anxious to tell them that the Church is sending a professional fundraiser along with you on trips in order to try and drum up money for apologetics, since the heat from critics is getting hard to bear.

You'll always have your eager and admiring disciples here, though, so there'll be no great external pressure on you to treat me or any other believing Latter-day Saint with charity or even minimal fairness.

That's ridiculous, of course.

[_Jersey Girl]

I'm framing this.

LOL. The size of my salary is none of your business, just as the size of your allowance is none of mine.

Totally priceless!

I thought you were supposedly gardening, jersey! I got my bushes and shrubs in the ground and I'm done for the day.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I am the highest paid fundraiser in my agency in 12 states. Granted, that isn't saying much. lol

I didn't make it outside yet! I'm actually interacting with a bottle of Murphy's Oil Soap at the moment.

Ah, fund raising just isn't my thing. I'm no good at it but I'm glad that people especially those in your position, are!

[_Daniel Peterson]

I have to admit that, while I don't believe in spiritual forces, the comments about a "fundraiser" creeped me out a little bit. I don't have a good feeling at all about this individual and his or her activities. . . . I meant, this particular fundraiser, the way s/he has beein introduced makes me uneasy. It's kind of like, in a suspense or horror movie, otherwise normal things play into the uneasiness. I agree that something just isn't right with this picture, and a personage that we hitherto had no knowledge of I believe has something to do with it.

You're exactly right that it's "the way s/he has been introduced" that makes for uneasiness and suspicion. Implanting suspicion is my Malevolent Stalker's overarching goal in his posts, and there’s no question that he combines a distinct gift for creating atmosphere – in a previous incarnation, he is said to have accompanied silent films on the mighty Wurlitzer – with his obsessive determination to find anything and everything that he can use or abuse to defame me. His performance on this thread has been no more than typical:

this shadowy figure whose purpose is to milk wealthy LDS for FARMS "blood money" . . . the sneaking, "end around" way that we witnessed during the Mark Hoffman episode . . . employing a professional fundraiser in order to squeeze funds out of wealthy Church members . . . this mysterious "fundraiser" . . . the depths this "passion" reaches . . . this clandestine "fundraiser" . . . this mysterious "fund-raiser” . . . this clandestine "fund-raiser"

There is, of course, absolutely nothing “clandestine” about legally compliant fund-raising, whether by the Maxwell Institute or the BYU College of Engineering, or by Harvard, or by Columbia Presbyterian Hospital, or by the Sierra Club, or by Barack Obama.

On the relatively few occasions where I’ve accompanied a fundraiser, s/he has been entirely upfront about who s/he was and what s/he was there for. When I’ve given a fireside at his or her request, s/he has, invariably, spoken briefly to the group beforehand, identifying him- or herself and inviting those interested to contact him or her, either directly afterwards or in some fashion later.

And I'm not being shifty about fundraiser gender, incidentally. (My Malevolent Stalker has been in the business too long for his principal victim, moi, not to have formed a pretty clear notion of his standard MO.) Both male and female fundraisers work for LDS Philanthropies, and I've had dealings with both.

I have just received a "communique" from one of my "tipsters." Let us call this informant "Kathleen."

The network of anonymous "tipsters" apparently feeding "communiques" to my Malevolent Staker from which the Stalker extracts "useful" information in order to compile "dossiers" on his selected targets might strike some as "creepy."

Apparently Gadianton is not among those creeped out by it?

Herewith, a few answers to questions, and then I'm done for a day or two, at least:

Did Dan really bring this man with him when he [went on the trip] with the purpose of hitting . . . rich members up for cash?

No. The fundraiser brought me with him, in order to solicit donations.

I’ve done this a few times. By far, though, most of my public speaking has nothing whatever to do with fundraising.

Was Dan being paid to deliver a fireside?

I have never been paid to give a fireside. I've never been offered money for giving a fireside, nor would I accept it.

Does the Maxwell Institute have a sales rep?

No.

What do they call people who hit rich people and celebrities up on behalf of charities?

Fundraiser is the typical generic term.

I notice that you rather conveniently ignored the point I made about how the FP revised its stand on the Hill Cumorah.

Yes, and for several reasons. Among them: It didn't happen; it's a silly accusation; I've already said everything that I have to say about the matter; discussions with you, in my experience, have invariably been pointless and endless, only serving to provide you with more material that you can scour in order to find something supposedly incriminating; etc.

What I've just cited here is what you usually say when asked about how Mopologetics are funded.

Quite so.

Do you see what I mean? It is this endless playing around with meaning.

It's precision.

Critics have long asked: "Does the Church help out with Mopologetics?" Rather than simply saying, "Yes," you feel compelled to added countless qualifications

I always do what I've always done. I neither want to deny that the University, a wholly-owned Church operation, does provide some assistance to an organization that, among many other things, devotes a portion of its efforts to apologetics, nor do I want to support accusations that the Church funds apologetics as such. To do either would be to mislead and misrepresent -- which is your goal, not mine.

I doubt you'd be too anxious to tell them that the Church is sending a professional fundraiser along with you on trips in order to try and drum up money for apologetics

That a professional fundraiser, when s/he has taken me along on trips, is a fundraiser seeking to raise funds has been absolutely open, above-board, and publicly acknowledged, at private meetings, small "cottage meetings," and public firesides, with both Mormons and non-Mormons. There is no secret here, and no secretiveness.

You'll always have your eager and admiring disciples here, though, so there'll be no great external pressure on you to treat me or any other believing Latter-day Saint with charity or even minimal fairness.

That's ridiculous, of course.

I couldn't agree more.

[_dartagnan]

We're still talking about this crap?

The only thing these topics are good for is that they appear to be the only issue that get DCP to participate.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I sometimes feel the need to respond to public attacks on my character.

I do my serious writing elsewhere, though.

Odd, perhaps. But there you have it.

[_dartagnan]

I don't think you're character is in any danger.