More on the Financing of Mopologetics

[_Mister Scratch]

Request: Would the real Ray A please stand up?

If you had an objective bone in your body, I would take you seriously.

Which brand of hemp are you on tonight?

Where's that apology, Ray? To either me or to Dr. Shades?

[_Ray A]

Which Ray are you referring to, Dude?

At least people know who I am. Scratchy, you have no credibility whatsoever. You are an anonymous hack attcaking the character of other people, a vile leech and liar of the worst proportions, and frankly, I'd settle for any "Mormon delusions" before I'd bow to villains like you, because you are a DISHONEST person. You are a lying leech, and you damn well know it, though your naïve supporters haven't been subjected to your lies as I have.

[_Ray A]

Where's that apology, Ray? To either me or to Dr. Shades?

Apology for what? - calling you out for what you are?

[_Mister Scratch]

Which Ray are you referring to, Dude?

At least people know who I am. Scratchy, you have no credibility whatsoever. You are an anonymous hack attcaking the character of other people, a vile leech and liar of the worst proportions, and frankly, I'd settle for any "Mormon delusions" before I'd bow to villains like you, because you are a DISHONEST person. You are a lying leech, and you damn well know it, though your naïve supporters haven't been subjected to your lies as I have.

Oh, believe me, Ray. I *have* lied. No doubt I shall lie again. It is a tricky thing, this so-called "human life."

That said, I've never completely flip-flopped in such a huge, colossal way as you. Not that that's anything to be ashamed of. In fact, I'm still not quite sure why you got so upset over all of that. Are you ashamed about your past behavior for some reason?

Apology for what? - calling you out for what you are?

No. Your apology for your false accusation against Dr. Shades. And your dishonest manipulation of my PMs.

[_Ray A]

And your dishonest manipulation of my PMs.

I need only comment on this to vindicate my TOTAL belief that you're a wretched LIAR.

You, Scratch, are the lowest form of LIAR that exist on this planet. YOU distorted your own PMs to give MDB posters a FALSE impression! And they are the ones examining the "Lies of Mormonism", but your willing DUPES refuse to see what a brazen LIAR you are. That is why I have NO respect for you. Had you told the truth about your distortion, I could have respected you, but you live in total denial of your dishonesty.

[_Gadianton]

And your dishonest manipulation of my PMs.

I need only comment on this to vindicate my TOTAL belief that you're a wretched LIAR.

You, Scratch, are the lowest form of LIAR that exist on this planet. YOU distorted your own PMs to give MDB posters a FALSE impression! And they are the ones examining the "Lies of Mormonism", but your willing DUPES refuse to see what a brazen LIAR you are. That is why I have NO respect for you. Had you told the truth about your distortion, I could have respected you, but you live in total denial of your dishonesty.

Ray, get a hold of yourself and think a minute about what you're saying. If said Mr. Scratch indeed "distored his own PMs" to give posters on a message board a "FALSE impression", thereby said Mr. Scratch would be the lowest form of LIAR that exists on this planet? I like MDB and all, but this greatly exaggerates it's importance, in my opinion.

[_Ray A]

Ray, get a hold of yourself and think a minute about what you're saying. If said Mr. Scratch indeed "distored his own PMs" to give posters on a message board a "FALSE impression", thereby said Mr. Scratch would be the lowest form of LIAR that exists on this planet? I like MDB and all, but this greatly exaggerates it's importance, in my opinion.

Lies don't impress me, Gad, whether it comes from Mormons or anti-Mormons. Whitewashing doesn't impress me, either. But we have to discern between deliberate lies, and people who sincerely believe in what, at least I consider impossible. Dan Peterson has his reasons for believing the Book of Mormon to be truly historical, and I don't for one minute doubt his belief is sincere.

Did Joseph Smith lie? Of course he did. And his "lying for polygamy" was despicable! So what shall we assume? That Scratch's lying is okay because it's anti-Mormon, but Mormon "lying for the Lord" is not? Try to get a grasp of the double standards here.

[_Gadianton]

Ray,

Please, you are becoming the king of the false dilemma. All I was saying is that even if Scratch did lie to the forum, that could hardly make him the most dispicable liar on the planet. Let's get a grip on what's at stake here, my friend.

No one said Dr. Peterson doesn't believe in what he does, quite the contrary. However, it was you who argued that, apparently, any decisions he makes must be right because he could get a job anywhere. Well, if Martin Heidegger were alive today, he'd be the most sought after intellectual on the planet, and he supported Hitler.

And we actually agree on this point. Because I claim that Dr. Peterson has been deceived by the current heirarchy, something you object to fiercely because he's too intelligent. However, you believe he has been deceived by Joseph Smith. So how are you and I different?

[_Gadianton]

Here's my photoshop contribution. I think this expresses my feelings on the recent apologetic revelation very well.

[_Ray A]

Ray,

Please, you are becoming the king of the false dilemma. All I was saying is that even if Scratch did lie to the forum, that could hardly make him the most dispicable liar on the planet. Let's get a grip on what's at stake here, my friend.

No one said Dr. Peterson doesn't believe in what he does, quite the contrary. However, it was you who argued that, apparently, any decisions he makes must be right because he could get a job anywhere. Well, if Martin Heidegger were alive today, he'd be the most sought after intellectual on the planet, and he supported Hitler.

And we actually agree on this point. Because I claim that Dr. Peterson has been deceived by the current heirarchy, something you object to fiercely because he's too intelligent. However, you believe he has been deceived by Joseph Smith. So how are you and I different?

Not quite the right assessment, Gad. I don't believe that Dan, or Joseph Smith, "were deceived". I believe that both are seeing the same events, genuinely, in a different light than I do. And there's no comparison here to Hitler, which is "off", in my opinion. I believe that Dan Peterson is a scholar, and a believer, who firmly believes in the truth and goodness of Mormonism, and who rightly promotes, sincerely, what he believes, perhaps based on his many spiritual experiences and his conviction that Mormonism is true. It is true to say that I believe that these spiritual experiences can create some "blind spots" in regard to raw logical analyses, but not of Hitlerian proportions. I think Dan has been honest enough to say that he can understand why someone would not believe the Book of Mormon to be history, because a substantial portion of the evidence lies within (not all, of course), and for many it's not just a matter of "denying historicity", but denying the powerful spiritual impact of the Book of Mormon itself, and the eminent failure of critics to provide a genuine alternative explanation. I think if one could be provided, convincingly so, that that LDS scholars would seriously consider it (some, anyway), but at the moment, for example, even Metcalfe and Vogel "side" with LDS scholars that Spalding does not "fit the shoe". No one can miss a barnacle, and a barnacle is pretty much a hack who latches on to the nearest available explanation, regardless of problems, pro or con. Putting it in crude terms, I believe the Book of Mormon is as much history as Jack and the Beanstalk, but this hasn't lessened my deep appreciation of the book, in the spiritual sense. In that sense I believe it is as worthy as the Bible, for the great spiritual insights it provides.

And no, the "LDS hierarchy" didn't "deceive" me into thinking these thoughts. They are really my own thoughts. And even a generous stipend would not make any difference to me expressing them. Money can't buy belief or sincerity. No amount of it.