Dorky cover to new FAIR book.

[_MAsh]

If you are genuinely concerned for your fellow church member and are devouted to the cause of building (and retaining) the kingdom, why do you seek to profit from this book?


Lastly, I believe I may have met you years ago in your Ogden pawn shop/electronics store. Are you that Mike Ash?

A profit for 3+ years of work would be nice, but it would be gravy. I have bills to pay and have sacrificed a lot of time to write it-- and I'm out probably more in funds then I'll ever make back (gas to libraries, printing & ink, purchase of source books, etc.). I think that many doctors are genuinely concerned for their patients but they still charge them.

And yes, I work in Ogden-- but at a Jewerly/Electronics store (not a pawn shop). I sell consumer electronics.

Mike

Dear Mike---

First of all, please allow me to congratulate you on your publication. I really hope you've set aside time for a proper celebration. Kudos to you!

That said, if you don't mind sharing, what was the payment scale like that you received for this book? I.e., were you given an advance? Further, what is the royalties set-up like? Is it the typical 10% for the first 10,000 copies, 15% for the next 10,000, and so forth? If you don't feel comfortable discussing this, I completely understand, though I have to admit I'm very curious.

Cheers, in any case, and a hearty congratulations.

Thank you Mister Scratch. No up front payment. I've put a lot of out-of-pocket expenses into this book that I will probably never make back. I won't go into details-- but the possibility that I do not receive any money is high. The possibility that I will receive a small amount of money if the book sells well is a open. I could have sold this to a different publisher and made standard royalties. By taking the route I took, however, it helps expose FAIR to book buying Mormons who may not spend as much time on the net as we do.

Mike

[_Trevor]

By taking the route I took, however, it helps expose FAIR to book buying Mormons who may not spend as much time on the net as we do.

How much extra-net marketing does FAIR do? Why would you expect the book to help them get noticed outside of the internet?

[_Trevor]

A friend liked a latest Rambo. Oh, well.

So now you know your friend has room in his heart for cinematic schlock.

And, I can rest easy that my reaction to the cover was not simply a knee-jerk dislike for most LDS apologetics.

[_Blixa]

As often, my overwhelming concern is aesthetic. The cover is sub design. That said, it just may suit its intended audience who might be confused and upset by actual style.

[_harmony]

You consider providing your thoughts (not the Brethren's thoughts, but your thoughts) as reaching out? ... Why not just direct those seekers to those who are called to know?

Yes. My thoughts. The Brethren aren't call to know everything. There's nothing wrong with any Church member expressing ideas on speculative matters or things beyond revealed doctrine. I don't understand why this seems problematic.

Whoa. Back that up, please.

I thought your book covered things that a member might come upon unexpectedly on the internet that might cause them to doubt their testimony; things like Joseph having more than one wife, or multiple First Visions, multiple Hill Cumorah's, or polygamous marriages performed after the Manifesto. In other words, events which the church considers historical, not speculations about doctrine.

Now you're saying your book covers speculative matters? Things beyond revealed doctrine? What are you specifically referring to here? Because, to be honest with you, that sounds as if what you seek is not to help questioning members, but instead is an end run around the authority that the Brethren alone have to declare that which is doctrinal and that which is not. Because that which is beyond revealed doctrine is not for lay members to publically declare (for questioning or confused members or anyone else)... only the Brethren hold those keys.

Perhaps because only the Brethren hold all the keys as part of their callings and you are not seeing them move as quickly as the internet does, you thought you might help them out? It seems troubling at the minimum that a member of an ad hoc apologistic group like FAIR would have the chutzpah to place their own thoughts above what the Brethren have revealed to us on "speculative matters" or "things beyond revealed doctrine", and that that member published a book about it.

Perhaps those words do not represent your book. Would you care to try again? Because right now, it appears that with the best of intentions, the question of authority and stewardship seems quite problematic.

I am the sole authority on my thoughts-- which gives me the right and authority to speak or write about my thoughts.

About your thoughts, yes. But when you venture into speculative matters or things beyond revealed doctrine for the whole church, then you step into the shoes of the Brethren. Or rather, you run right over them. Speculative matters and things beyong revealed doctrine as they apply to the church as a whole, including questioning or confused members, is not the stewardship of lay members of the church. Only the Brethren have that stewardship.

How can you help a questioning member about speculative matters or matters beyond revealed doctrine when you have no authority and no stewardship to do so?

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time that I was wrong about something and it wouldn't be the first time that someone valued the thoughts of someone who was incorrect.

Mike

To be quite blunt, if you're wrong about speculative matters and things beyond revealed doctrine in a published tome available to the public, and you lead others astray with your thoughts, you are not only wrong, you're subject to church sanction. Not to be a party pooper, but that's not a burden I'd want to carry.

[_MAsh]

By taking the route I took, however, it helps expose FAIR to book buying Mormons who may not spend as much time on the net as we do.

How much extra-net marketing does FAIR do? Why would you expect the book to help them get noticed outside of the internet?

The book is being distributed by Deseret Book-- which means it should end up on retail shelves and possibly get picked up by book readers who aren't familiar with FAIR. The book lists FAIR as a resource for further information.

Mike

[_bcspace]

CRAPPY CHURCH SYNDROME

Oh come now. First you guys tell us how good we are at brainwashing and other skullduggery and now you say how crappy we are. You can't have it both ways.

[_MAsh]

You consider providing your thoughts (not the Brethren's thoughts, but your thoughts) as reaching out? ... Why not just direct those seekers to those who are called to know?

Yes. My thoughts. The Brethren aren't call to know everything. There's nothing wrong with any Church member expressing ideas on speculative matters or things beyond revealed doctrine. I don't understand why this seems problematic.

Whoa. Back that up, please.

I thought your book covered things that a member might come upon unexpectedly on the internet that might cause them to doubt their testimony; things like Joseph having more than one wife, or multiple First Visions, multiple Hill Cumorah's, or polygamous marriages performed after the Manifesto. In other words, events which the church considers historical, not speculations about doctrine.

Perhaps I should have said "interpretive" matters. What do we make of the multiple accounts of the FV? How do we understand polygamy? Where did Book of Mormon events take place? Are there official statements that clarify these issues? No. Therefore I have as much right to speculate as anyone else. They are speculative in the sense that we don't have clear answers. Let's add a few not discussed in this book: Should I vote Republican or Democrat? Should I follow a South Beach Diet or Atkins? Does the Church have a position? No. Can I speculate? You bet.

I am the sole authority on my thoughts-- which gives me the right and authority to speak or write about my thoughts.

About your thoughts, yes. But when you venture into speculative matters or things beyond revealed doctrine for the whole church, then you step into the shoes of the Brethren. Or rather, you run right over them. Speculative matters and things beyong revealed doctrine as they apply to the church as a whole, including questioning or confused members, is not the stewardship of lay members of the church. Only the Brethren have that stewardship.

To be quite blunt, if you're wrong about speculative matters and things beyond revealed doctrine in a published tome available to the public, and you lead others astray with your thoughts, you are not only wrong, you're subject to church sanction. Not to be a party pooper, but that's not a burden I'd want to carry.

Lucky for you then, you don't have to carry that burden. If everyone followed your advice then you would never have any LDS scholar write about anything Church related-- no scriptorians, no students of the early Church, etc. I'm sorry, but I can't follow your line of logic and I see no point in trying to continue with this particular issue.

Harmony, I've tried to answer your questions as forthrightly as I can, but I once again am reminded while I dislike message board interaction. I don't know if this was your intent, but you come across as very abrasive. I don't think I'm being hyper-sensitive here, but who knows. In order to avoid a discussion that becomes contentious, I hope you'll understand if I don't respond to all your questions.

Mike

[_Gadianton]

Blixa made the most important observation so far. The cover art is sub-Xtian bookstore work for sure, but anything more tasteful might be a stumbling block to the intended audience.

[_Dr. Shades]

I believe in evolution, an ancient earth, and a limited flood.

Does your book address why the Brethren have always taught the exact opposite on all three counts?