More on the Financing of Mopologetics

[_Chap]

Because if we could prove it we'd get an influx of people who thinks it's true and have no spiritual witness. Without that witness, they would be ineffective members, have no idea what we're talking about in most of our lessons, and would probably not do their home and visiting teaching. Huge headache. Not worth it. We have enough dead weight as it is.

Hey, it's almost as if it would be in God's benefit to make it almost impossible to believe!!

So ... if one is supposed to believe in the Book of Mormon on the basis of spiritual witness alone, what is all this supposed to be for? Evidently Joseph Smith thought that it was important:

THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

And:

THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[_antishock8]

Mormons (like all human beings) have very short memories, and that will work to your advantage.

Wow. Ain't that the truth. So. To review:

1) Some apologists get paid small sums of cash for their work. Figures vary.

2) Some apologists are "professional apologists" paid indirectly by the Mormon church. The curriculum vitae proves apologia is expected and encouraged. <-That was a huge slip up by Mr. Peterson.

3) Some apologists enjoy funded trips to present their claims. Over the course of years this can cost the Mormon church well in excess of six figures.

4) Critics think Mormon apologist SHOULD get paid, because they provide a valuable service to the Mormon church. Sweat equity should have a payoff.

The claim that all Mormon apologists do this for free has been thouroughly rebutted, and proven false. The truth is there exists a cabal of professional Mormon apologists who do get paid, to varying degrees, and also enjoy funded trips by the Mormon church.

[_Pokatator]

I'm sorry, but Mr. Potato Head's pot is calling Poor Antishock's kettle black? That's marvelous.

Sorry, anti, I got to correct the record.

While I do believe that Doctor Bishop Peterson is some kind of vegetable, perhaps a bulbous tuber, I don't think he is a potato head. I know for a fact, okay I feel, er I have testimony that all the potato heads were valiant in the pre-existence. We have a very high standard of authority in this life because of our faithfulness. That is why I think that the hired apologist for Mormon, Inc. is not of our class, he is trying to earn his way back to the CK. He has a a lot of work to do in this life as lots of other low-lifes and fence sitters do.

I do think Dr. Pete is from the turnip lineage. A far less valiant lineage than you are giving him credit for.

I thank you in advance for your future consideration in this matter.

Pokatator
a.k.a. Mr. Potato Head

[_beastie]

3) Some apologists enjoy funded trips to present their claims. Over the course of years this can cost the Mormon church well in excess of six figures.

One correction before Dr. Peterson makes you an offender for a word:

It's not directly costing the "Mormon church". It is costing the group that is encouraged by leaders of the LDS church to obtain donated funds from wealthier members, which they can then spend on apologia without the Mormon church being "directly" responsible.

[_antishock8]

3) Some apologists enjoy funded trips to present their claims. Over the course of years this can cost the Mormon church well in excess of six figures.

One correction before Dr. Peterson makes you an offender for a word:

It's not directly costing the "Mormon church". It is costing the group that is encouraged by leaders of the LDS church to obtain donated funds from wealthier members, which they can then spend on apologia without the Mormon church being "directly" responsible.

Thanks. I've made myself clear before that I think the Mormon church isn't just Mormon HQ, but any Mormon working to establish the Kingdom of God with overall authority ceded to Mo HQ. Regardless, that's Mr. Peterson's MO which is to parse words and cherrypick quotes in order to avoid being honest and straightforward. He has some serious character flaws that run deeper than, say, my vulgarity. These are the kinds of flaws that allow him to lie for Wahhabists as well as Mormons. It's incredibly sad and disheartening to see someone knowingly work a system for lucre, not caring about the Big Picture. What a shame, and what a waste for Western Civilization that his talents are self-serving and ultimately undermine our society, albeit in a small way.

[_The Nehor]

Because if we could prove it we'd get an influx of people who thinks it's true and have no spiritual witness. Without that witness, they would be ineffective members, have no idea what we're talking about in most of our lessons, and would probably not do their home and visiting teaching. Huge headache. Not worth it. We have enough dead weight as it is.

Hey, it's almost as if it would be in God's benefit to make it almost impossible to believe!!

It's hardly impossible considering how many people believe it. It is to God's benefit to make you seek a spiritual witness.

[_The Nehor]

Weak, very weak.

I guess I don't need or would have to have everything proved but at least one or two things would be nice. Like a tapir, or a word on a plate or stone, or anything tangible instead of just stories and stories about stories.

Yet true, very true.

If we let you see the plates tomorrow would you join? Came up with the perfect explanation of horses in the Book of Mormon? This would be worst of all. You spend a lot of time here mocking God, his leaders, his institutions, and his teachings. Would proof change that? Would you stop thinking DCP is a liar? That teachings are incorrect? I doubt it. Would it give you a spiritual witness? No.

[_Chap]

Weak, very weak.

I guess I don't need or would have to have everything proved but at least one or two things would be nice. Like a tapir, or a word on a plate or stone, or anything tangible instead of just stories and stories about stories.

Yet true, very true.

If we let you see the plates tomorrow would you join? Came up with the perfect explanation of horses in the Book of Mormon? This would be worst of all. You spend a lot of time here mocking God, his leaders, his institutions, and his teachings. Would proof change that? Would you stop thinking DCP is a liar? That teachings are incorrect? I doubt it. Would it give you a spiritual witness? No.

Well, like I said a little while back - very relevantly, I suggest, to any "seeing the plates would decide nothing" argument:

... if one is supposed to believe in the Book of Mormon on the basis of spiritual witness alone, what is all this supposed to be for? Evidently Joseph Smith thought that it was important:

THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

And:

THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Perhaps the prophet just didn't understand the LDS faith as well as a modern Nehor does. That figures.

[_antishock8]

*Mormon COMPARTMENTALIZATION ALERT*

[_Pokatator]

Weak, very weak.

I guess I don't need or would have to have everything proved but at least one or two things would be nice. Like a tapir, or a word on a plate or stone, or anything tangible instead of just stories and stories about stories.

Yet true, very true.

Purely, your opinion.

If we let you see the plates tomorrow would you join?

Who is we? You make it sound like you have the plates?? Quite honestly today I would still be very skeptical but it would go a long way in making me take second looks at the church but if these tangible things were available in my youth I am sure it would have cemented my feelings into a full blown testimony.

Came up with the perfect explanation of horses in the Book of Mormon?

This is not as compelling as real Golden Plates that were translatable by modern scholars would be but any kind of evidence would help the church's claim and cause more reason to investigate.

This would be worst of all. You spend a lot of time here mocking God, his leaders, his institutions, and his teachings.

You spent a lot of time mocking me and everyone here, so? How is a call for evidence mocking God? Your leaders call for me to examine your books, evidence, doctrines, teachings and compare them but now my questioning is mocking? You are defensive because your church evidence has failed and is non-existent.

Would proof change that?

Quite frankly yes. No one here would be asking for evidence if there were some now would they? Would I be a member and a believer? Maybe yes, maybe no, but the chances of being so would increase dramatically.

Would you stop thinking DCP is a liar?

Where have I said DCP is a liar? I don't think he is lying, I think he honestly believes the stuff he puts out. I don't think that he does all this for filthy lucre. I believe that you and him are genuine, genuinely deluded but genuine none the less.

That teachings are incorrect? I doubt it. Would it give you a spiritual witness? No.

Again your opinion, who knows? But thanks for admitting that there is nothing of substance in existence.