Shield on Joseph Smith's Cane

Post by **_John Larsen** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:38 pm

I think the latest you can go with the Pentateuch is 800 BCE.

Back to the original idea of the Jesus-snake, I am interesting how much Joseph developed this idea. I know he believed that snakes had legs--which means that he took the garden of eden story seriously.

However, I think much of the theology of snakes was developed later. Like the idea that Satan choose the form of a snake as a counterfeit messiah, the same with Mose and Pharaoh's snakes. Or the idea that Quetzalcoatl is Jesus since it is represented as a feathered snake...etc.

Post by **_John Larsen** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:41 pm

I am talking about Kirtland:

Not the Nauvoo weathervane:

Post by **_Mike Reed** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:51 pm

Right. I would love to be able to call the kirtland temple weathervane a cross, but (for the moment) I can't in good faith... since these weathervanes were used by Protestants in early 19th century America as substitutes for the cross. If you look closely at the weathervane you will see that the horizontal piece is actually an arrow. :-/

But again... I wish I could say otherwise, since your suggestion could be helpful for my thesis.

Post by **_Mike Reed** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:57 pm

I've gotta go to work, but I will be back later tonight. Thanks to all who have posted on this thread so far. I look forward to reading more from you guys (and gals) when I get home. Thanks.

Post by **_karl61** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:54 pm

I can't remember where I read it (likely about the old testament) but the serpent story one of the oldest in the history of religion: thousands of years prior to ancient Israel there were religious stories about the serpent.

Post by **_moksha** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:02 am

cksalmon wrote:
Sethbag wrote:I wasn't familiar with the snake being a symbol for Christ. Would you mind explaining that a little?

I believe Mike's thinking of John 3.14-15 (and its attendant Old Testament reference):
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Chris

Are there any examples of Jesus being portrayed as a serpent in any artwork?

Post by **_TrashcanMan79** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:31 am

moksha wrote:Are there any examples of Jesus being portrayed as a serpent in any artwork?

Edited to add: If you meant artwork excluding Satanic death metal album covers, then I'll have to keep looking...

Post by **_Alter Idem** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:04 am

Mike Reed wrote:
John Larsen wrote:
Mike Reed wrote:I think many LDS would be surprised to learn that he had an interest in symbols including the cross.

There was a cross on the Kirtland temple, If I recall correctly.

Are you referring to the weathervane?

The Nauvoo temple had cruciform stonework around the pentagram windows, and all three of the Smith family magic parchments have crosses on them. Also... Emma Smith made a quilt with the clothes that Hyrum and Joseph wore when they were killed, with pentagram stars and a Greek cross on it. Mainstream Protestants in early 19th century America generally avoided the use of the cross, but I think Smith used it because he was influenced (in part) by folk-magic and freemasonry. I also think the pre-Colombian use of the cross (validating the authenticity of the Book of Mormon) was an additional factor.

Hi Mike, two questions for you. First, where is this cane that belonged to Joseph now? Do you know?

Also, are you sure that Emma used Hyrum's clothing to make the quilt? I have seen a set of clothes that Eldred G. Smith (last church patriarch) owns and displays and I was pretty sure he said they were the clothes Hyrum was wearing. I was surprised because I'd think they would have had blood on them...of course the clothing could have been washed.

I'm not able to make out the carving on the cane very well. But since masonry was popular at that time and men wore masonic watch fobs, rings, tacs, etc, it's likely that they would have also had masonic symbols decorating canes, so I'd say that's a good assumption.

Post by **_Mike Reed** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:10 am

Alter Idem wrote:Hi Mike, two questions for you. First, where is this cane that belonged to Joseph now? Do you know?

Matthew B. Brown's citation in his Joseph Smith: The Man, The Mission, the Message (p. 106) says, "Crown and initials on cane. Photograph Val W. Brinkerhoff. Shown courtesy of the Museum of Church History and Art, Salt Lake City, Utah." Maybe the Cane is in the possession of this Museum.

Also, are you sure that Emma used Hyrum's clothing to make the quilt? I have seen a set of clothes that Eldred G. Smith (last church patriarch) owns and displays and I was pretty sure he said they were the clothes Hyrum was wearing. I was surprised because I'd think they would have had blood on them...of course the clothing could have been washed.

I don't know. Matthew B. Brown's same book (p. 16) gives the image and says, "A RICHLY COLORED PACHWORK QUILT DISPLAYED in the master bedroom of the Prophet's Nauvoo Mansion House. This unique artifact was reportedly made by Emma Smith from the clothing of the Church's President (Joseph) and Patriarch (Hyrum) after they had been martyred at Carthage Jail in June 1844."

I'm not able to make out the carving on the cane very well. But since masonry was popular at that time and men wore masonic watch fobs, rings, tacs, etc, it's likely that they would have also had masonic symbols decorating canes, so I'd say that's a good assumption.

The image in Matthew Brown's book (p. 57) is colored with a much better resolution.

Post by **_CaliforniaKid** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:46 am

John Larsen wrote:I think the idea of Christ as a serpent is probably a latter reading by early Christians to try to appropriate old Hebrew writings as point towards Jesus as the Messiah. Early Christians had strong motivation to demonstrate that the ancient prophecies of the messiah were pointing to the man Jesus. As would be expected, there was some creative reinterpretation which would probably be anachronistic from a historical Hebrew view.

I don't think anyone has made the case that the serpent was used by Hebrews as a symbol of the coming messiah prior to the Christian era. If anyone has any evidence otherwise I would be interested in.

The bronze serpent was problematic for both Christians and Jews of the post-exilic period. You will recall that it remained in the temple until the time of Josiah, who removed it as part of his monotheistic reform. Archaeologists have found a 12th-century Midianite tabernacle that had a copper serpent in its holy of holies. I suspect that the story of the miracle effected by the serpent-idol in the wilderness was a pre-Josian tradition that, after the monotheistic reform, needed reinterpretation. The Christian view that it was a symbol of Christ made for a convenient "out" and featured in their efforts to proselytize Jews. In his debate with the Jewish sage Trypho (whose teachings later appeared in the Talmud, by the way), the second-century Christian apologist Justin Martyr pointed out the morphological similarity of the serpent-[impaled?]-on-a-pole to the cross of Christ. The strength of this argument, I think, was that it alleviated an unresolved tension in the Torah and thereby allowed converts from Judaism to find richly-textured prophetic meanings in some of the previously-troubling parts of their own tradition.