BC's View of LDS Doctrine -- Is It Doctrine?

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_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

beastie wrote:Born Again EV: I have received assurance that I am saved!!! It was such a strong experience I have no doubt of its validity. I have no interest in finding a "more true" faith because of the strength of this experience. People who think they have had spiritual assurances about OTHER faiths are being misled, either by satan, or because they haven't experienced an event as strong, and clear, as my own.

Mormon: I have received a testimony of the truthfulness of the church!!! It is such a strong experience I have no doubt of its validity. I have no interest in finding a "more true" faith because of the strength of this experience. People who think they have had spiritual assurances about OTHER faiths are being misled, either by satan, or because they haven't experienced an event as strong, and clear, as my own.

??????: I have received a witness of the truth of (faith X). It is such a strong experience I have no doubt of its validity. I have no interest in finding a "more true" faith because of the strength of this experience. People who think they have had spiritual assurances about OTHER faiths are being misled, either by satan, or because they haven't experienced an event as strong, and clear, as my own.

Now, the entire problem is that NONE of these people can ever KNOW what the other experienced, and hence, has absolutely no rational justification for dismissing the others' as less strong or clear. And each person has no way of knowing whether or not an even MORE clear or strong experience could be had in another faith.

Beastie, I'd like to poke one hole through your theory...

The EV that had received a witness that he/she was saved, UNTIL the LDS missionaries showed up on his/her doorstep. When they felt the spirit tell them the LDS church was true, the feeling was SOOO much more powerful than the EV feeling.

This cuts both ways as well as I've heard of LDS members switching to other religions because of a much stronger feeling of "truthfulness" in the non-LDS religion.

However, the point being that an individual may have a way to compare truth meter #1 vs #2.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

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_Brackite
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Post by _Brackite »

Hello,


The Nehor wrote:
Is it LDS Doctrine that the Garden of Eden was located in the State of Missouri?


If upon reading the Scriptures you think it is, sure. If not, fine.



Yes, it is indeed LDS Doctrine that the Garden of Eden was located in the State of Missouri .

Please See:

Doc. and Cov. 116:

Bible Dictionary:

Was The Garden of Eden in Missouri?

And:

Adam-ondi-Ahman:



Is it indeed LDS Doctrine that the Flood of Noah was worldwide?


If upon reading the Scriptures you think it is, sure. If not, fine.



Yes, it is indeed LDS Doctrine that the Flood of Noah was indeed worldwide.

Please See:

The Flood of Noah

And:

The Flood and the Tower of Babel




Is it LDS Doctrine that the Hill Cumorah is located in the state of New York?


If upon reading the Scriptures you think it is, sure. If not, fine.



Yes, it is LDS Doctrine. The Hill Cumorah described in the Book of Mormon is very likely the same Hill Cumorah that is in the State of New York.

Please See:

Mormon 6:6:

Where is Cumorah?

And:

Letter:




Is it LDS Dcctrine that the Lord God of the Book of Mormon is Anti-Polygamy?


Read Jacob and decide based on that. Prayer might help too.

Is it LDS Doctrine that the Book 'Mormon Doctrine' is LDS Doctrine?


Hell no. There was never a book with such a bad name. Mormon Doctrine is not doctrine. If a writer is called to account by the leadership of the Church over what they wrote, consider it speculation.

Is it LDS Doctrine that there will be Polygamy/Polygyny being practiced again in the ushering in of the millennium?


No revelation on the matter.

Is it LDS Doctrine that there will be more females than males in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom?


No revelation on the matter.

Is it LDS Doctrine that there will be a lot of Polygamy/Polygyny being practiced in the Celestial Kingdom?


I have no idea. Some think there will be.

Is it LDS Doctrine that there will be no Polyandry being practiced in the Celestial Kingdom?


No revelation speaks for or against this. I put it in the same category as women getting the Priesthood. Nothing forbidding it ever happening but nothing saying it will.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Brackite
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Post by _Brackite »

bcspace wrote:
Is it LDS Doctrine that the Garden of Eden was located in the state of Missouri?


Yes.

Is it LDS Doctrine that the Flood of Noah was worldwide?


Yes.

Is it LDS Doctrine that the Hill Cumorah is located in the state of New York?


One of them, yes.

Is it LDS Dcctrine that the Lord God of the Book of Mormon is Anti-Polygamy?


Non God authorized plural marriage, yes.


Hello,

Whether or not it is LDS Doctrine, or not, or is it, or whatever, the Lord God (Who is Jesus Christ) of the Book of Mormon, is indeed Anti-Polygamy.
Here is Jacob Chapter Two, Verses 23-24, within the Book of Mormon:

Jacob 2:23-24:

[23] But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
[24] Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
[25] Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
[26] Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
[27] Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
[28] For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.



And, Here is Ether Chapter 10, Verses 5-7, in the Book of Mormon:


Ether 10:5-7:

[5] And it came to pass that Riplakish did not do that which was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and concubines, and did lay that upon men's shoulders which was grievous to be borne; yea, he did tax them with heavy taxes; and with the taxes he did build many spacious buildings.
[6] And he did erect him an exceedingly beautiful throne; and he did build many prisons, and whoso would not be subject unto taxes he did cast into prison; and whoso was not able to pay taxes he did cast into prison; and he did cause that they should labor continually for their support; and whoso refused to labor he did cause to be put to death.
[7] Wherefore he did obtain all his fine work, yea, even his fine gold he did cause to be refined in prison, and all manner of fine workmanship he did cause to be wrought in prison. And it came to pass that he did afflict the people with his whoredoms and abominations.




Is it LDS Doctrine that the Book 'Mormon Doctrine' is LDS Doctrine?


Yes.


Is it LDS Doctrine that there will be Polygamy/Polygyny being practiced again in the ushering in of the millennium?


Not that I'm aware.



LDS Church Apostle Bruce R. McConkie stated and wrote in his Book, 'Mormon Doctrine' that:

'Obviously the holy practice (of polygamy) will commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man and the ushering in of the millennium.'
(Mormon Doctrine, 1966 edition)




Is it LDS Doctrine that there will be more females than males in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom?


Not that I'm aware, though it logically fellows that if there's plural marriage, there will be more females.



BCSpace stated and wrote in another Post here:

Since plural marriage exists, there will obviously be more women in the highest degree than men. Perhaps it's not a matter of need to populate and more of a need to be married.

(Link: http://www.mormondiscussions.com/discus ... ht=#134446 )



Is it LDS Doctrine that there will be a lot of Polygamy/Polygyny being practiced in the Celestial Kingdom?


None that I know of. Certainly nothing that defines "alot"


Yes, it is LDS Doctrine, Unfortunately.

The Following is from Brigham Young:

Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of Heaven among men. Such a system was commenced by the founders of the Roman empire. That empire was founded on the banks of the Tiber by wandering brigands. When these robbers founded the city of Rome, it was evident to them that their success in attaining a balance of power with their neighbours, depended upon introducing females into their body politic, so they stole them from the Sabines, who were near neighbours. The scarcity of women gave existence to laws restricting one wife to one man. Rome became the mistress of the world, and introduced this order of monogamy wherever her sway was acknowledged. Thus this monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians as a holy sacrament and divine institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers.

...

Why do we believe in and practise polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord's servants have always practiced it. "And is that religion popular in heaven?" It is the only popular religion there, for this is the religion of Abraham, and, unless we do the works of Abraham, we are not Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise.


(Link: Journal of Discourses, Volume #9. , Bold Emphasis Mine. )



Is it LDS Doctrine that there will be no Polyandry being practiced in the Celestial Kingdom?


There is none that I know stating yes or no.



Polyandry will Not be able to be Practiced in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, according to LDS Doctrine. The Following is from Doctrine and Covenants Section 132, verses 61-64:

Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:61-64:

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.



Why don't you look these up in the official works of the Church?
Last edited by MSNbot Media on Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_SatanWasSetUp
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Post by _SatanWasSetUp »

Brackite wrote:
Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:61-64:

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed;


So is polygamy limited to 10 wives? And are the wives supposed to be virgins? It seems some of these nitpicky polygamy rules were bent by Joseph Smith and his polygamy buddies.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley

"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

The EV that had received a witness that he/she was saved, UNTIL the LDS missionaries showed up on his/her doorstep. When they felt the spirit tell them the LDS church was true, the feeling was SOOO much more powerful than the EV feeling.

This cuts both ways as well as I've heard of LDS members switching to other religions because of a much stronger feeling of "truthfulness" in the non-LDS religion.

However, the point being that an individual may have a way to compare truth meter #1 vs #2.


It doesn't matter, because there's always an infinite number of 3s out there. Sure, number 2 may be stronger than 3, but, as far as the EV convert goes, there may be an even STRONGER one out there that would convince him/her that his 1 and 2s were paltry and insignificant.

So is polygamy limited to 10 wives? And are the wives supposed to be virgins? It seems some of these nitpicky polygamy rules were bent by Joseph Smith and his polygamy buddies.


It's even worse for Joseph Smith, cuz the Old Testament God explicitly stated you can't marry a woman AND her mother. It's really bad when even the Old Testament God would say "ewwwww" to your behavior!!!
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_ludwigm
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Post by _ludwigm »

There is a good material about the (so-called) Doctrine, at:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1030862

It is scholarly, unbiased and polite.
( It has a little disadvantage, the big size. 20 pages, ~6000 words. )
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

I'd rather stick with what the Church itself says about it's own doctrine. Makes more sense and most rational and intellectually honest people do the same.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Repeating for bc:

From Numbers 31 – the Israelite were commanded by God to go after the Midianites. They killed all the males and:
9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

So apparently the LORD was really mad that the Israelites had kept ALL the women alive, and not just the virgins. They took care of that, though.

Reliable revelation or not?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

Reliable revelation or not?


What makes you think it's unreliable?
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

So BC...

Lets go with your belief that anything published by the LDS church is LDS doctrine.

Do you think all LDS official doctrine is true?

If one is a believer in the LDS church does this assume they believe or agree with LDS doctrine?

Can one be a member of the LDS church in good standing and believe some doctrine is completely wrong?

What is the purpose of doctrine if members don't believe it? Or if it is not true?

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
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